Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 204

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    That, my Lord, is 04. This is the first of the
 1conversation. I am afraid I have not attached a
 2translation of it, but I will do a translation on reply on
 3the one or two lines that matter. It is a 15 minute
 4conversation with Heydrich who on that day was in Berlin.
 5We do not know who initiated the conversation, my Lord,
 6but Heydrich phoned Himmler or Himmler phoned Heydrich.
 7We never see them. We have to infer. Conference with
 8Rosenberg, conditions in the government general, getting
 9rid of the Jews, beseitigung of the Jews, and then the
10third line -- the fourth line rather, juristen
11nuralseerater, roughly lawyers just as advisers.
12     Nothing else on that page to which I will
13refer. Merely it shows there were conversations going on
14between these two gentlemen on liquidation or getting rid
15of the Jews.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the significance for my purpose of
18 MR IRVING:     It is the context in which the principal document
19is embedded, my Lord. The inference that has been drawn
20against me is that I have one cardinal document and
21I would go around the world waving this document and
22saying "here it the proof". It is, in fact, showing that
23they were constantly talking about getting rid of the
24Jews, using --
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is no issue, is there, that that was
26something that both Himmler and Heydrich were intent upon

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 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. The word " beseitigung" is interesting. You
 3can look at it either this way or that way, literally as
 4getting rid of, which can be sweeping under the carpet or
 5liquidation. I am quite happy to accept that here they
 6were talking about liquidation, these two gentlemen. It
 7now becomes more interesting, my Lord, on page 5.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you just let me highlight?
 9 MR IRVING:     We come to the intercepts and Mr Rampton does not
10wish me at this point to bring in this material. I am
11quite happy to turn the page, but I think it is useful to
12bring it in all in chronological sequence.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you "intercept" --
14 MR IRVING:     This is the Bletchley Park intercept of the --
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Messages to Berlin.
16 MR IRVING:     Messages between Berlin and the Eastern Front for
17police commanders, and also a whole number of other SS
18units, but these are the ones I rely on.
19     No. 35 is a message addressed from Berlin on
20November 17th, that same day as the previous conversation,
21to the commander of security police, Dr Lange, L-A-N-G-E,
22in Riga, concerning, and I use the next word in original
23German -- these are my translations, concerning the
24evakierung of the Jews. "Evakierung", my Lord, is one of
25those words we will probably tussle over. The literal
26translation is "evacuation", but I am perfectly ready to

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 1accept for the purposes of this action that "evakierung"
 2is occasionally used by the SS as a euphemism for a more
 3ugly means of disposing.
 4     But in this particular case what is significant
 5is that the man in Berlin is telling the recipient in
 6Riga, on November 17th, in other words, that same day, at
 76.25 p.m., transport train No. DO 26 has left Berlin for
 8Kovno or Kornas, with 940 more Jews on board. That was
 9usually the rough size of each train load of Jews, about
101,000 Jews. Transport escorted by two Gestapo and 15
11police officers. Transport commander is Criminal
12Overassessor Exner, the man's name, who was two copies of
13the transport list with him. Transport provided with
14following provisions, and this is interesting part, my
15Lord, 3,000 kilogrammes of bread, three tonnes of bread
16for a two or three day journey. 27 kilogrammes of flour,
17nearly three tonnes of flour; 200 kilogrammes of peas; 200
18kilogrammes of nutriments; 300 kilogrammes of corn flakes;
1918 bottles of soup spices. They continue in the next
20message; 52 kilogrammes soup powders, 10 packets of
21something or other, we do not know; 50 kilogrammes of
22salt; 47,200 Reich Marks in crates. Signed Gestapo
23Headquarters, Berlin. Quite an interesting document, my
24Lord. It is the first kind of thing we come across in my
25view to show that these trains were actually
26well-provisioned. It is a bit of a dent, a tiny dent in

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 1the image that we have, the perception, as Mr Rampton
 2calls it, of the Holocaust today.
 3     The next one, page 6, is a message intercepted
 4on 20th November. It is unimportant for our purposes on
 5what day it was decoded. It was decoded 10 days. It
 6takes 10 days to decode it. The actual message is dated
 7three days later, 20th November 1941, again, dressed do
 8commander of order police and the SS in Riga, concerning
 9evacuation of Jews. The same kind of thing, transport
10train No. DO56. Has left Bremen, destination Minsk with
11971 Jews on 18th November. Escort command regular police
12Bremen, transport commander Police Meister Bockhorn,
13B-O-C-K-H-O-R-N, is in possession of two lists of names
14and 48,700 Reich Marks in cashiers' credits. Jews are
15well-provisioned with food and appliances.
16     My Lord, on the next page you will see the
17actual intercept, page 7 is what the actual intercept
18looked like. They are headed "Most Secret". It is the
19second paragraph, my Lord.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Most secret" is put on at Bletchley, is it
22 MR IRVING:     Indeed, of course. There is no indication on the
23intercepts themselves, as intercepted here, what security
24classification they have. But I want to draw attention
25only to the word "gerat" in the fifth or sixth line of the
26intercept, which means appliances. Any German speakers in

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 1the room I am sure would agree the word "gerat" is the
 2tools of the trade, roughly, they are being sent to the
 3East with food, with provisions, and with the tools of
 4their trade.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have translated that as what?
 6 MR IRVING:     Appliances. It is a rough cover all, tools of the
 7trade would be a little bit too specific, I am sure
 8Mr Rampton will probably eventually object. But the sense
 9of gerat, if a cameraman comes into this room he would
10bring his gerat with him, his appliances with him.
11     The next one is No. 15, I rely on this because
12it shows in the first line, I am sorry I am still on page
136, my Lord, the second message on page 6 SS Obergruppen
14Fuhrer Jeckelm, transferred from Kiev to Riga. So that
15was the day this criminal was transferred to Riga, round
16about November 20th, and in fact it is a pretty low level
17message. They are worried about what happened to motor
18cars and things like that if I remember correctly.
19     If we can now turn straight over to page 9, my
20Lord, I took the trouble during the night to dig out of my
21files, the war diary of Hitler's headquarters, which
22I have. These are all my documents. All my documents
23when I obtained them for the book, I had bound in these
24volumes because I anticipated perhaps Mr Rampton would
25say, well, we have no proof that Hitler was in his
26headquarters, that he was at home on the day of crucial

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