Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 204

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    Yes, it fits in with the last part of the sentence, "it
 1must be done more discreetly"?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does it not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now why do you reject the second half of that message and
 6embrace the first half?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     We have been over this, but we will attack it from a
 8different angle. We are dealing not with a verbatim
 9transcript of what Altemeyer said, we are dealing with the
10recollection by a German army general four years later of
11what Altemeyer had said. We are dealing with a triumphant
12SS young officer, triumphantly he declaims this. The SS
13were eager to kill Jews. They were very indignant when
14orders had come down from whoever that this killing had to
15stop. They were eager to carry on somehow and so they
16were eager to find some kind of loophole that they allowed
17them to go on bumping off their enemies. So he tells the
18army officer, well, we have the orders but we are going to
19carry on doing it anyway.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Nudge nudge, wink wink, we are going to do it more
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is perfectly plausible.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I am glad you accept this.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is quite a different thing from suppressing it
26entirely and perverting its meaning into something

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not accept that I have done that.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is what you have done.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not accept that.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very well.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whatever it means, it is not Altemeyer
 7saying, well, we are going, as it were, off our own bat,
 8carry on as before, because the words make it plain it is
 9part of the order that the mass shootings shall be carried
10out more discreetly in the future.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     When I am writing this up, and also when I am talking
12about it, I am not just taking this document into account,
13I am taking into account what we know at both other ends
14and also the killing of the Germans thereupon stopped.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Right.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Thank you.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Will you show Mr Rampton if you want to
18pursue the Stuttgart business.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     After lunch.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Provide it to him. 5 past 2.
21 (Luncheon adjournment)
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving and Mr Rampton, it is court 73 as
23from Monday. There were problems about Chichester Rents
24that made it unsuitable.
25 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much, my Lord. My Lord, first, one
26minor matter. I have one minor application to make which

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 1I would make about this time tomorrow concerning the date
 2of one of the witnesses who is appearing on summons that
 3it would be proper to make to your Lordship.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I know.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     He may mean Monday, may he not, my Lord?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Monday.
 7 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much, Mr Rampton.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are going to review whether we sit on
 9Fridays, but for the moment I think it probably is, in
10everybody's interests to have, not least yours, Mr Irving,
12 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much, my Lord. My Lord, you will
13have seen the press clipping which I put to you this
14morning ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I did.
16 MR IRVING:     --- from the German newspaper. I will not read it
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you seen it, Mr Rampton?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I have.
20 MR IRVING:     It refers to the year 1996. According to this
21press clipping, the German government have asked for my
22extradition to Germany on an allegation, an alleged
23offence that I committed in 1990. The substance of the
24allegation is neither here nor there. I am only concerned
25with the coincidence of time; the fact that after 10 years
26suddenly this should have occurred now, just as our action

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 1here is being heard.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not want to cut you short, but I rather
 3sympathise with your view that it is unlikely to be a pure
 4coincidence, but what on earth can I do about it?
 5 MR IRVING:     Put my mind at rest, my Lord. If we could ask the
 6Defendants whether they have had any advance or prior
 7knowledge in any way at all of this or whether they were
 8contacted at all with the prosecuting authorities in
 9Stuttgart, or whether they contacted the prosecuting
11     The reason I have to say this, my Lord, is
12because, as my discovery shows, one of the bodies which
13I mentioned in my opening statement has corresponded in
14the past with both the German Embassy and the Austrian
15Embassy asking for my arrest.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going to compel Mr Rampton to stand
17up and give an answer to that question. There are two
18ways in which you can deal with it if you want to pursue
19it, and I do not myself feel that you would be well
20advised to do so, but if you want to pursue it, you can
21either lay the foundations in your own evidence for me
22to draw the inference that it must have had something to
23do with the Defendants -- that is one way of dealing with
24it -- or you can cross-examine whichever of the
25Defendants' witnesses you think would be able to answer
26your questions on this topic.

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 1     I appreciate you understand that Professor
 2Lipstadt will not be being called to give evidence so you
 3will not be able to ask her, but there may be other
 4witnesses, I do not know, who are going to be called by
 5the Defendants whom you could ask. But, to be candid, my
 6feeling is that we have quite enough to gnaw on this in
 7this case without really going down what are effectively
 8side alleys.
 9 MR IRVING:     Very well. I did wish to draw it to your
10Lordship's attention in case the morning should arrive
11when this end of the bench was suddenly empty.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If that were to happen (which I think is
13unlikely) I will do my best to prevent it. Does that
15 MR RAMPTON:     So indeed would I. Although your Lordship said
16you are not going to compel me to answer, but if I may
17respectfully say so, rightly, Mr Irving did ask me to
18ask. I did ask and the answer is no.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There you are. You do not have to accept
20that, but that is what you are told.
21 MR IRVING:     Quite clearly, I am sure that Mr Rampton would not
22have made that statement if it was in any way ^^-- I will
23accept that assurance, but I will also advance this
24particular episode as an instance of the kind of hatred
25that I have faced and the problems that I have faced in
26view of the allegations and the repugnant suggestions made

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