Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 204

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    "But other reports unfortunately have the ring
 1from the meanest of motives. There was a particular SS
 2officer in Riga who is described in the report by Bruns in
 3which Bruns said the difficulty for us was how to decide
 4to draw what he had seen what we had seen to the Fuhrer's
 5attention, and eventually they sent a lieutenant down the
 6road and got him to write what he saw and they sent this
 7report signed by the lieutenant up to the Fuhrer's
 8headquarters through Canaris. Two days later the order
 9comes back from Hitler 'these mass shootings' [in quotes
10notice, Mr Irving] these mass shootings have to stop at
11once so [and this is now you again] Hitler intervened to
12stop it."
13     As a quotation from the evidence of General
14Bruns those words in quotes: "These mass shootings have
15got to stop at once", is a complete perversion, is it not,
16of what Bruns actually said?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     What is the difference?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He said these mass shootings have got to stop at once,
19they have to be done more discreetly?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     The 22 year old SS man allegedly said that to Bruns --
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what Bruns is reported as having told his fellow
23 A. [Mr Irving]     -- yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He did not say this, did he, that you have written here?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I gave the essential part of the information, which was
26that the orders -- we are talking about here the chain of

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 1command from Hitler downwards and that the killings were
 2carried out there, the SS officers on the spot and I make
 3this very clear distinction, the gangsters were in the SS
 4who did the killings on the Eastern Front and for that
 5there is any amount of evidence, a lot of which you have
 6in your own files but the evidence of Hitler's involvement
 7is very tenuous and goes in the direction which I
 8indicated from my small bundle. My I also draw your
 9attention to the fact this is a question and answer
10session, Mr Rampton.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I follow that.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     So there is no script. I am not reading out from a
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think the point on the quotation marks
15is not a fair one given that this is which you said in a
16speech because whoever transcribed it may well have just
17added the quotation marks?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Not just but obviously when one is answering questions
19from the floor one is giving an encapsulated version of
20the essence of a document as one recalls it.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I follow that.
22 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, there are two minutes, so it might help.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, why not use them.
24 MR RAMPTON:     If might help if we looked at the original German
25of Bruns said that Altemeyer had said.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     It does sometimes vary from the translation.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where do we find that?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     It is bundle H1(vii), some of Professor Evans
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     It is actually from my discovery.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I do not know where it comes from.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     If it has a number written on the top right hand corner.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Unfortunately, I have not brought that
 8particular file.
 9 THE WITNESS:     I was the person who discovered this document.
10 MR RAMPTON:     The page, have you got that?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Not in front of me.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not have the German?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is 233, which looks to me like the British transcript
15it is the transcript of Bruns' actual words -- before
16I ask the question I must look in the dictionary because
17I have not got my own.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Massen" is underlined, is it underlined in
19the translation?
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I do not know who did that.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, it looks original.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It is original.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Shows how important it is, Mr Irving, to go back
24to source, does it not.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a "yes".
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know how those transcripts were made? They were

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 1secretly recorded, presumably by some hidden microphone.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It is still very secret but in the next door room
 3everything was taken down outsize large disks like the old
 4fashioned 78s.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now can we assume that this is an accurate transcript;
 6there is no reason to doubt it, is there?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     They are normally very accurate transcripts. They had
 8research teams who would have extensive catalogues and
 9indices to check on words and names.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us look at the German, you will help me when my German
11strays off course as it very likely will, the relevant
12passage is at the bottom of page 233. It is line
13beginning der Altemeyer something triumphantly said
14quotes: "Hier ist eine Vorgugung" that is an order?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Not necessarily, that is a strange kind of order. It is
16more of an ordinance.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Here is an ordinance come, just come?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That says, yes?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To the effect that, let us say, shall we, dass?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This kind of or these kinds of "derartige"?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     That kind of, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     These kind of?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Mass shootings.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mass shootings, do you hear how I read it, mass shootings?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In future, in Zukunft... which means must not take place
 4any more, does it not?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Das soll vorsichtiger gomacht worden"; that means this
 7shall in future be more cautiously or discreetly done?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Very good, Mr Rampton, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, not very good, but it is not very difficult, is it,
11two things about it?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It translates not as "shootings on this scale", it
14translates as "shootings of this kind"?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the word "mass"?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is underlined. Do you agree that that is likely to
19reflect the transcriber's impression of the emphasis which
20Bruns placed upon that word when he spoke it?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good. It is a very significantly different version from
23the one you have, if I may use a colloquialism "been
25 A. [Mr Irving]     You mean by leaving off the corollary?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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