Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 189

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    They are entitled to make that criticism on their
 1blasted and burnt to pieces. Our archives are intact. We
 2now no longer have a 50 year rule, and so we would be
 3entitled to expect to find as a result of our having had
 4unconditional surrender from the Germans and total insight
 5into their archives we would expect to find the record
 6relating to Hitler, then we would not expect to find in
 7the British Secret Service archives, which, of course, are
 8only the archives which are still closed in this country.
 9That became a bit convoluted, if I had a second chance
10I would say it again slightly differently
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think I understand what you are saying. You are really
12saying that because the German archive is incomplete -
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, we have total insight into the German archives such
14as they have survived by virtue of unconditional surrender
15which we did not have at the end of World War I, but we
16certainly had at the end of World War II. There are no
17German archives that were withheld from the invading
19     So after over 50 years we would be entitled by
20now to have found the document that proves me wrong,
21whereas we are not entitled to expect to find records
22about General Sikorski, even now, because it would have
23been a Secret Service matter and Secret Service files are
24closed for at least the next 100 years.
25     So it looks like a double standard to start with
26until you realise you are looking at two different

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 1theatres of operation. But, again, if they want to put
 2specific examples to me, some I will concede, and most
 3I will not, probably
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- well, I think before we move on to the next point we
 5will adjourn and resume, if you will, please, at
 62 o'clock
 7 (Luncheon adjournment)
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, can I before we resume with your
 9evidence just ask Mr Rampton something, if you will
10forgive me? It is a logistical question, Mr Rampton.
11Assuming you are going to be starting to cross-examine
12this afternoon ---
13 MR RAMPTON:      Yes
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      --- I am wondering whether I have all the
15files that I ought to have here because what I do not want
16to find happening is that you ask a question in relation
17to a document that I do not have a copy of. Are you able
18to help
19 MR RAMPTON:      Can I just say, I do not know how long I will get,
20but assuming it were an hour or so, your Lordship would
21need the copy of Mr Irving's opening which you should have
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I have
24 MR RAMPTON:      And files D2(i), (ii) and (iii)
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I have all of those too
26 MR RAMPTON:      The only other thing that your Lordship would need

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 1would be Professor Evans' report if we got as far as that.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I have that. Thank you very much. I thought
 3I had better check
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, before you resume your examination or your
 5questioning, can I raise just two points
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Of course, yes
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I drew your Lordship's attention to a newspaper, a leading
 8article which appeared in The Independent this morning
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Which I have read. I cannot lay my hands on it at the
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I have it here, my Lord. I personally found it pushing
12the envelope of what is permissible, but maybe, in view of
13the fact that either I am a litigant in person or we are
14sitting without a jury, this kind of comment is permitted
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think the position really is this,
16Mr Irving. I understand what you say, but I can really
17only intervene if I were to take the view that in some
18shape or form it amounts to a contempt. I do not. I am
19fairly clearly of that view. But if it helps at all,
20I totally disregard it
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much, my Lord
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think I will not say any more about it
23 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, you asked in one of your questions whether I had
24compared or weighed casualties against casualties,
25atrocity against atrocity. I have referred to the final
26paragraph of my "Destruction of Dresden" book, and, my

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 1Lord, the bundle which I handed you this morning which
 2I believe is on the desk in front of you at this end, the
 3thin bundle, is that it, bundle B on page 5
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, this is the new bundle
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the new one I gave you this morning. It is
 6selections from the books. You already have the entire
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, you mentioned that
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     If you look at page 5, my Lord, big figure 5, at the foot
10of the page, there is this paragraph: "On 13th February
111946, the former Commander in Chief of RAF Bomber Command
12sailed from Southampton on the first stage of his
13journey. That night throughout eastern and central Europe
14at 10.10 p.m. the church bells began to peal. For 20
15minutes the bells ran out across the territories now
16occupied by a force as ruthless as any that the bomber
17offensive had been launched to destroy. It was the first
18anniversary of the biggest single massacre in European
19history, a massacre carried out in the cause of bringing
20to their knees a people who corrupted by Naziism had
21committed the greatest crimes against humanity in recorded
23     That is about as close as I have ever got to
24weighing atrocity against atrocity, my Lord, and that was
25in my first book
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I am just puzzled by the date

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is the first anniversary of the Dresden raid, my
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I see
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     This is why the bells are ringing
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I see. It was the Commander in Chief of Bomber Command
 6setting out that misled me
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     The second page I would draw your Lordship's attention to
 8concerns the adjutants. You asked whether I had made use
 9of that information I obtained from the adjutants about
10Buchenwald inmates to be liquidated. Page 99, my Lord, by
11chance, is one of the pages that I included in the
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Tab 4, the last page
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It is big figures 99 at the bottom of the page. The third
15paragraph, my Lord, is: "As American troops advanced
16across ... Hitler was confronted with the problem of the
17concentration camps. Goring advised him to turn them over
18intact and under guard to the Western allies who would
19sort out the criminals from the foreign labourers and
20Russian prisoners thus preventing hoards of embittered
21ex-convicts from roaming the countryside and inflicting
22additional horrors on the law-abiding. Hitler did not
23share Goring's trust in the enemy. Sitting casually on
24the edge of the map table after one conference, he
25instructed Himmler's representative to ensure that all
26inmates were liquidated or evacuated before the camps were

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