Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 189

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, that is what I meant by "demonstrate", "illustrates"
 2is a better word
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I am careful there, because when I introduced in my
 4previous book, the November 30 handwritten annotation by
 5Himmler, my opponent said, "this is his only evidence,
 6this is what he relies on", and it was not, I had more.
 7My Lord, we shall be hearing at a later stage in these
 8proceedings Dr John Fox, who is an expert, among other
 9things, on these police decodes, and I shall be asking
10him, with your Lordship's permission, the condition of
11these decodes and are they wall to wall? Is everything
12there, or are there gaps? If one finds an item like this,
13of course, it is a nugget, one is not entitled to expect
14to find it, but one find it and here it is, suddenly in
15our faces, you cannot ignore it. There are several
16documents like that, my Lord
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, I was going to invite you to perhaps pass on now
18from the shootings of the Jews and to skip section 3,
19which is the Leuchter Report
20 A. [Mr Irving]     While I am in full flood can I move on to another Hitler
21document just three months later
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, of course
23 A. [Mr Irving]     After the Danzig Conference, which was an interministerial
24conflict on the executive measures for the Final Solution,
25whatever it was, there was a lot of paperwork in 199 --
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     In 1942

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     In 1942, the Danzig Conference was held on January 20th
 21942, my Lord. After the Danzig Conference the ministries
 3engaged in a lot of paperwork, and at one stage the
 4necessity was ventilated of bringing up this matter with
 5Adolf Hitler, whatever the Final Solution was, the
 6Ministry of Justice began to get uneasy about it, because
 7they could see it had ugly connotations; there were
 8illegalities being adumbrated, and the head of the German
 9Civil Service, Dr Hans Lammers, who was a minister, a
10Reich minister, telephoned the head of the German Ministry
11of Justice, whose name was Schlegelberger, we shall be
12hearing quite a bit about the Schlegelberger document and
13in this telephone conversation which Schlegelberger wrote
14a minute on, or what a lawyer would probably call an
15"attendance note", Lammers said "the Fuhrer", Adolf
16Hitler, "the Fuhrer", Adolf Hitler, "has repeatedly said
17he wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed
18after until the war is over". This is a document that is
19caused my opponents immense difficulties. The
20difficulties they solved initially by pretending it did
21not exist, by which I mean they did not quote it. They
22did not adduce it in their history books, and when that
23thorn in the flesh, David Irving, kept on reminding them
24of existence of this document, which tripped them up
25whatever their hypotheses were, that is when the real
26battle began, the skirmishing began. But I think your

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 1Lordship will appreciate that I am entitled to point to
 2that document as being another document in that chain of
 3evidence, unless of course I have deliberately
 4mistranslated it, or misconstrued it
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, I do not think that is suggested
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but it is clearly a very important document. A
 7wartime document written by a lawyer on a phone call from
 8the head of the German Civil Service, who is the next one
 9up to Adolf Hitler, saying the Fuhrer has repeatedly said
10he wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed
11until after the war was over, which was typical Adolf
12Hitler, anything like that he wanted put on the back
13burner he had fought this ghastly war through. There were
14several problems like that, the church problem was another
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What was Schlegelberger's position
17 A. [Mr Irving]     He was at that time, as I understand it, Secretary of
18State, which is the equivalent of a permanent Under
19Secretary in a British ministry. In the Ministry of
20Justice, his Minister was Dr Franz Goertner, who I believe
21had died recently at that time, so he was effectively in
22charge of the Ministry, Schlegelberger, and the minute he
23wrote was directed to a few notorious names including
24Rowland Friessler. It is quite an interesting document
25and interesting about the document, my Lord, is at the
26time of the Nuremberg trials it vanished. It remained in

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 1original in the Ministry files, but the photocopies
 2provided to the lawyers at Nuremberg, this extraordinary
 3document, vanished. It was not there, and it gave me a
 4lot of trouble locating the original eventually
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes. Would you like to pass on now, do you accept that
 6the Leuchter report is plainly part and parcel of the
 7Auschwitz issue
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think that must be right. Then the next section in the
10Defendant's summary of case, which is -
11 A. [Mr Irving]     The Leuchter Report, of course, exists in two
12incarnations, my Lord. The original Leuchter Report was an
13affidavit drawn up as an expert report for the Canadian
14courts and what we published was a glossy version
15truncated and streamlined
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- but it was basically the same
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Made the same allegations and on the same contentions
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     We will leave that on one side, shall we
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I can see it comes in in some other context. Then there
21is a heading called "Historiography", this is really the
22section where there are a whole series of detailed
23criticisms made of you, it being alleged that you have
24skewed documents and generally behaved in a -
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Reprehensible -
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- disreputable way as a historian in your treatment of

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 1the evidence. Now it is up to you how you deal with it,
 2you can either deal with it generally, or you can make
 3some specific points on the instances that are cited
 4against you
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     -- well, the general statement I would say is Mandy
 6Rice-Davies, they have to say this, my Lord, they would
 7say, would they not? My opponents, who I could also
 8categorise as my rivals, dislike the fact that I get to
 9the documents before them. For 30 years I have been the
10one to dig out the diaries.
11     By way of a general remark I would say I that
12I would visit the widows and obtain the papers, not
13because I was more industrious than them, but purely
14because I took the trouble. I visited the widow of State
15Secretary Anstrom Wiedsecher, who had been Ribbentrop's
16State Secretary. She was Baroness Marianne von Wiedsecher,
17who was subsequently the mother of the State President of
18Germany, President von Wiedsecher and it turned out that
19she had all her husband's diaries and letters, which she
20made available to me, and was rather puzzled that she had
21not made them available to the German historians and her
22reply was, "Mr Irving, they never asked". It was the same
23with very many other historians -- many other historical
24sources. Purely by virtue of visiting the widows or next
25of kin or digging around I have obtained these diaries and
26private papers

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