Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 189

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    But I can continue because the inference that
 1to very interesting conclusion, namely the liquidation was
 2in the air and people have pointed this out to me and I do
 3not dispute that for one moment. But what interested me
 4is Adolf Hitler's biographer is that here is a case of
 5Hitler intervening in a negative way. But it gets more
 6interesting, my Lord, because we now have 20 years further
 7down the road at the end of the 1990s in the Public Record
 8Office the intercepts of the radio messages sent by
 9Himmler the very next day to the man who had carried out
10the killings, SS Obergruppenfuhrer Joachim. Now this may
11be new to your Lordship. It is certainly new to everybody
12in this court; December 1st 1941, the day after the
13killings, Joachim gets a message from Heinrich Himmler in
14top secret SS code which we broke reading, and I have this
15there memory, I have the actual document on my desk over
16there but the sense is, the words are: These shootings
17that have been carried out in Riga, concerning the
18shootings in Riga, any excess, any further excesses,
19arbitrary excesses and actions against instructions given
20to you -- no. You have been given clear guidelines
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think we ought to look at this document
22I am not familiar with it
23 MR RAMPTON:      Nor are we
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Then I think we should look at it
25 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, it has been supplied to the Defence several weeks
26ago

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am not doubting that for a moment. Can you
 2indicate where it is so we can get it for you
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It is large yellow sheets headed "Most Secret" in my case,
 4at the bottom of the inside of my case. Then I do not
 5have them with me, because I was intending to lead this
 6material tomorrow
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So I understand what you are saying, you are saying there
 8is a message from Himmler to Joachim
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     From Himmler to the Chief of the SS saying: There were
10very clear guidelines for the outsettlement, the
11outplacing of the Jews from Berlin
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So it is about the Jews from Berlin
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It is talking about Jews from Berlin, clearly referring to
14this train load. He then continues: Any further arbitrary
15actions and actions against instructions will be severely
16punished, and he ordered Joachim to report immediately to
17Hitler's headquarters. On December 4th, my Lord, and this
18I do have there in the big blue volume -- can you give it
19to me, the Himmler Diary, have had that volume now for 20
20years -- on December 4th 1941 Joachim then turns up at
21Hitler's headquarters and he is raked over the coals,
22there is no question, because the killings of German Jews
23stopped for the next few months. On December 1st I would
24say ----
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Is there a copy of this document? If there is not there
26should be one

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, there are copies made. I had all this bundle
 2ready to be produced tomorrow
 3 MR RAMPTON:      Can I help
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Because of the importance ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think Mr Rampton knows where it is
 6 MR RAMPTON:      I do not know if it is he same document. From its
 7wording I very much suspect it is, but on page 353 of
 8Professor Evans' report at paragraph 6 ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Professor who
10 MR RAMPTON:      Professor Evans page 353, paragraph 6, he has a
11quotation from a document: "The Jews have been resettled
12out of the territory of the "Ouslander" (?) only to be
13dealt with in accordance with guidelines issued by me or
14the Reich Security Head Office on my authority. I will
15punish individual initiatives and contraventions.
16Signed H. Himmler", and it is annotated as being Himmler
17to Joachim, 1st December 1941 at 7.30 p.m. in the Public
18Record Office HW16/32
19 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct
20 MR RAMPTON:      It is the same document
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Does he also have the following message, let me ask
22Mr Rampton, where he instructs Joachim to report to
23headquarters immediately
24 MR RAMPTON:      I do not have that document
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Clearly the significance of that is even more important
26than this rap on the knuckles about the arbitrary

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 1reactions and acting against authority and disobeying the
 2guidelines. On December 1st, the day after the killings,
 3the same day as these telegrams, here is in Himmler's own
 4handwriting a telephone call at 1315 to SS General
 5Heinrich about the executions in Riga which everybody
 6agrees is referring to this appalling atrocity where the
 7Jews had been shot into the pits. The significant feature
 8is, as all the historians on both sides now agree, that
 9from that time on the killing of German Jews stopped for
10many months. The fact that this instruction had come in
11the first instance from Hitler's bunker and on the
12following day from Heinrich Himmler who had been to see to
13Hitler who sends him a message that I would describe as
14"panic stricken" to General Joachim saying "any further
15actions of this nature, any arbitrary actions against the
16guidelines, will be severely punished and you are ordered
17to report to Hitler's headquarters", is a matter which
18I think is so serious that this is the reason why I was
19preparing a very detailed bundle on it, my Lord, with
20complete facsimiles and translations for your Lordship's
21attention, because it goes very closely to the central
22issues in this case: How far was Hitler personally
23involved and what were his intentions
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     In relation to the shooting
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Of European Jews as opposed to Russian Jews
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, but in relation to death by shooting

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     And also in relation to my contention, as your Lordship
 2will be aware, that there is a chain of documents of
 3varying magnitudes of integrity and weight which indicate
 4that Hitler was a negative force in this matter, whereas
 5there are no comparable documents indicating the
 6opposite. I know it is barely credible, but if one comes
 7to this with a open mind and then 20 years later one comes
 8across yet another document like this extraordinary
 9British intercept, this decode of the SS message from
10Himmler to the man on the spot who had done the killings,
11saying any further such actions will be subject to
12punishment and ordering him to report to Hitler's
13headquarters. It is an extraordinary episode and I find it
14also highly significant that the German historians have so
15far not been prepared to refer to this episode with a
16single line as far as its significance is concerned,
17because they are mortally terrified under the consequence
18of the new laws passed in Germany. It has been the
19foreign historians, like myself, who have drawn attention
20to this exchange of documents
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Your case really, as I understand it, that
22that particular example of the transport from Berlin
23demonstrates what you say was Hitler's role in relation to
24it
25 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, it is one indication. It is not the only
26evidence that I rely upon, my Lord

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