Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 189

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    If I may state at this point also, one would
 1discovery been complete, and I am going to submit her
 2discovery was incomplete, any correspondence that she
 3might have had or any communications she might or might
 4not have had with the publishers' concerns, St Martins
 5Press, or with the people who were putting pressure on the
 6publishers, because the Second Defendant was certainly
 7instantly quoted as an authority on the reasons why the
 8book should be suppressed
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, but you are entitled to make applications for
10discovery, but let us focus on your evidence. If you want
11to make that application we can deal with that at the
12beginning or the end of the day
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not an application, my Lord, it is an allegation.
14I was informed by the second Defendants' lawyers when your
15Lordship will have seen that I succeeded in obtaining an
16order that the Second Defendant should be required to
17swear a list on affidavit. When that occurs, as your
18Lordship is aware, I am not allowed to go behind the
19affidavit until the trial of the action. I was repeatedly
20reminded of this by the defendants' solicitors, who said
21you will be able to cross-examine Professor Lipstadt when
22the time comes, on her affidavit, and, of course, now we
23will not
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes
25 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not the last time I shall refer to that, my Lord.
26I find it an unfortunate state of affairs

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 1     So the book anyway in the United States did not
 2appear. The just proceeds of that book not appearing were
 3denied to me. But not only the just proceeds of that book
 4but as it seems now all future books, because all the
 5publishers with whom I previously dealt in the United
 6States have pointed to that episode in grief and terror
 7and said we cannot afford that to happen to us. The
 8chairman of the St Martin's Press was obliged to resign
 9six weeks later over the scandal and nobody wanted to go
10through that again
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes. So that is your evidence about the effect of what
12has been published by these Defendants. Now --
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Specific details, yes, my Lord, of course, there is a
14long-term effect in this country as well
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- describe that
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The book, which has been published by the First and Second
17Defendants has been not just sold through the normal
18outlets, it has been placed on the Internet on two
19different website locations. I have no way of knowing
20whether they are active participants in that or not
21because we cannot cross-examine them on that. I, the
22Defendant, but the book has been made available in other
23words to 200 million Internet users. They can download it
24free, the entire book, and review probably regardless of
25whatever injunction your Lordship sees fit to make at the
26end of this trial that book will continue in perpetuity in

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 1cyber space. The book has been donated to very large
 2numbers of university libraries around the world. One of
 3my correspondents at the University of Durham has found no
 4fewer than three copies in Durham University library with
 5library plate gummed into the front saying "donated by
 6Friends of Durham University History Society". There is
 7no such Society. So it has been actively propagated by
 8who knows whom. The book is relied on as a source. It is
 9an authoritative source by people who wish to attack me
10further. So it has an ongoing rolling effect far beyond
11the effect it has just on the one customer who picks it up
12at his local Barns & Noble or Waterstones bookshop, my
14     Of course, the book is a very much more serious
15libel -- vehicle for a libel then a newspaper. When
16newspapers have libeled me or defamed me in the past and
17people have come to me wringing their hands in grief as
18you will see from one of the speeches I made. I said, fear
19not because today is already Monday and what appeared
20yesterday is already wrapping fish and chips or being
21flushed down the drains in some paper processing plant.
22Whereas books go into libraries.
23     But simultaneously, as your Lordship will have
24seen from the witness statement of Professor Evans, when
25he went to the British Library and asked to obtain a copy
26of my book he was told that it had mysteriously been put

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 1in the pornographic book section and was not freely
 2available. The book which I have on the desk in front, my
 3book "Hitler's War".
 4     It is quite ingenious campaign, my Lord, I would
 5aver that on the one side my book is being suppressed and
 6squirreled away, hidden out of sight so people cannot see
 7what I actually wrote. Pressure is put on publishers so
 8they do not publish my books and simultaneously a campaign
 9is launched by very well qualified writers and very gifted
10writers, armed with ammunition from all around the world
11in an attempt to defame me which I then cannot answer.
12     Has your Lordship further questions on ----
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Not on that aspect, and I do not want to impose any kind
14of rigid pattern to your evidence if you do not want it to
15emerge in that way
16 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I find it is very useful that you ask me these
17questions because it is like an examination in chief
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I hoped you might. Yes, that is what it is really intended
19to be. What I was going to suggest you deal with now, is
20the plea of justification because that is obviously the
21main issue. If it is not inconvenient to you it would be
22most helpful to me if you were to deal perhaps quite
23briefly with the various allegations that are put against
24you in the Defendant's summary of case, because I think
25everybody agrees that superseded the original defence, we
26discussed that at pretrial review

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think it is a convenient summary of the allegations that
 3are made against you and can you deal with it briefly or
 4at greater length. It is a matter for you. I have no
 5doubt you will be cross-examined about it anyway, but
 6would it be appropriate to go through --
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     If I can find it in this bundle
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- the topics. I have it in a separate file. I do not
 9know whether if you have it in the same form I have, the
10Defendant's summary of case
11 MR RAMPTON:      We have it. Does your Lordship have it in a
12separate file
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. That may be something I did and have
14forgotten about.
15 MR RAMPTON:      It is in the pale green thing
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Have you got it
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I have the summary of the Defendants case, yes
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, as you recall it is divided into sections, and the
19first section, which is quite a short one, is the
20allegation that is made against you by the Defendants that
21you are what is called a "Holocaust denier"
22 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I think I led, or at any rate I gave my reply to
23that allegation in my opening statement yesterday at some
24length, and I am not sure there is very much more I can
25add to that in chief, so to speak. Perhaps the ----
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Can I just put a little bit of flesh on the bones of that

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