Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 189

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    Mr Irving, the first of those imputations that you say
 1something about those organizations
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I put to your Lordship a small bundle of
 3documents ----
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     --- on those organisations
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I have read it.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It is probably not necessary for me to go in detail
 8through them. I will indicate to your Lordship that
 9reliable sources, like the BBC or other news media
10organizations, have consistently described the Hezbollah
11and Hamas, which are two Muslim fundamentalist terrorist
12organizations, as being criminal organizations whose
13members are not allowed into other countries and are
14actively pursued by the forces of law and order and,
15indeed, actively pursued with less law and order by the
16forces of the Mossad, who sometimes dispose of them by
17jabbing the aforementioned hypodermic needle laden with
18nerve gas into their neck which is one of the documents
19which I put before your Lordship
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, I have read them
21 A. [Mr Irving]     So anybody who is described in this reckless way as being
22a member of the Hamas or the Hezbollah or some other
23similar terrorist organization is at risk of being
24declared fair game with the forces of law and order or, at
25the very least, for the immigration authorities and
26countries who already look askance upon people for various

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 1reasons and, at worst, they are having their life put at
 2risk or they are going to be ruffed up in the street by
 3people who disagree with the Hezbollah or the Hamas.
 4     I do not share your Lordship's earlier opinion
 5at the pretrial review that is a matter which falls under
 6section 5 of the Act, my Lord
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I did not express any concluded view, obviously
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, my Lord. This was totally misquoted
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Can you help me on something else? You will have the
10opportunity to make submissions about that later on. You
11supplied documents relating to the bombing in Oklahoma
12City. Does that feature in Professor Lipstadt's book
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It does not feature in the book, my Lord, but I thought
14this was the appropriate bundle to put them, in February
151996 the media in the United States, where such
16allegations can be made with impunity, raised the
17allegation that I had supplied the trigger mechanism for
18the Oklahoma City bomb.
19     Now, the Oklahoma City bombing features in some
20of the documents quoted, I believe, by Professor Evans or
21by Professor Brian Levin, because they quote from my diary
22on that particular day; and to be accused of having
23anything to do with that crime was something I found
24particularly repugnant and I regard it as being part of
25the general campaign to vilify me and blacken my name
26which originated from the same sources which have funded

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 1the Defendants with the material they have used to smear
 2me. It is no more directly associated with them than
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Thank you very much
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     But it is like trying to put a hook into a custard pie.
 6You cannot really pin anything down until you stand back
 7and you see the whole continuum of the onslaught to which
 8I have been subjected
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The next thing you might want to deal with, Mr Irving, is
10the effect that that the publication of the book of which
11you complain has had on you. I have seen what you say in
12your witness statement about that, but if you want to
13expatiate on that, then please do
14 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, people have said to me, "Why have you picked on
15that book and those particular Defendants?" and the simple
16answer is because it is an open and shut case. I have
17been accused of doing things which they cannot justify.
18If we admittedly find it more difficult to disprove the
19subjective claims, ad hominem statements that are made,
20there are certain specific claims that are made, like the
21Adolf Hitler portrait or like the misquoting of documents
22or deliberate and reprehensible mistranslation or
23distortion, which are easy to disprove and they are the
24ones which reflect on my professional integrity and on my
25career and on my livelihood, which is precisely what the
26Defamation act, as I understand it, is about

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 1     This is one reason why I decided that the time
 2had come after 30 years to take some kind of action which
 3I did with the utmost reluctance because Penguin Books,
 4the First Defendants, have published books of my own in
 5the past and you are not eager to go and sue people who
 6have published your own books.
 7     The book, undoubtedly, had caused me serious
 8damage. When I consider, admittedly, this was not damage
 9within the jurisdiction, and it is possible the Defence
10counsel objected and it is, therefore, relevant, but in
11view of the fact that the publication of this book and the
12author of the book were widely quoted in justification by
13the American publishers for cancelling my Dr Goebbels'
14biography, which was for me a particularly wounding and
15injurious event, when I wrote the biography of
16Dr Goebbels, it was a task of nine years, my Lord.
17     We have just spent three years preparing this
18case, writing that one book which your Lordship has seen
19took me nine years. It went through, I think, six
20different drafts; the first draft entirely in handwriting,
21the drafts of the manuscript which the Defendants have
22seen fills some ten cubic feet of boxes, as it was refined
23and refined and then finally totally rewritten when I came
24into possession of the diaries. The book was set to
25restore my reputation completely until the United States,
26because your Lordship may well agree that the book cannot

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 1be described as "anti-Semitic", the book, in my
 2submission, cannot be described as justifying the
 3Holocaust or admiring Hitler or exonerating Hitler in any
 4kind of way, the book was, I consider, one of the most
 5well-founded and well-researched and watertight accounts
 6of the higher leadership of the Third Reich that I have
 7ever written. It was the crowning point of my career. We
 8waited with the utmost eagerness for publication day in
 9the United States, shortly before which the publishers
10contacted me and said, Mr Irving, we are beginning to come
11under attack from all quarters. One of the quarters was
12from the second Defendant
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Your evidence is, is it, that the -- I think you said "the
14author" did you mean..
15 A. [Mr Irving]     The Second Defendant
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The American publishers of the Goebbels book told you that
17Professor Lipstadt and --
18 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord, media accounts have linked Professor Lipstadt
19with this particular event
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- media accounts, rather than the American publishers
21 A. [Mr Irving]     This is true, my Lord, and it is very unsatisfactory that
22we are not going to be able, as I understand it, to
23question Professor Lipstadt about what contact she may
24have had
25     If I may state at this point also, one would
26have liked to have seen in her discovery, had her

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