Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 189

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     My full name is David John Cawdell -- I will spell that,
 2C-A-W-D-E-L-L Irving, I-R-V-I-N-G
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And address
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     My address is No. 81 Duke Street, London W1
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes. You have made a witness statement for the purposes
 6of this action and it is dated 22nd January last year.
 7Would you formally confirm that that is so
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     That is so. I have made a witness statement and the
 9statements in it are true
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, thank you. Now, you can take it that I have read it,
11but, as you pointed out a little while ago, the Press is
12reporting this case and I think it would be right to give
13you the opportunity to restate in summary form anything
14that you wish to from that statement
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not have a copy of the statement with me
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I think you probably should. Do you have anyone to help
17you fetch and carry documents
18 A. [Mr Irving]     My entire staff was called to the Bar just before
19Christmas, unfortunately
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Perhaps if you can provide? Thank you
21 A. [Mr Irving]     The statement is 18 pages, my Lord. If I were to read the
22statement out, it would take us until lunch time or would
23that be too long
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I am very much against you doing that because the main
25object of the exercise is, perhaps, to get your evidence
26across to me. I have read it, but I am giving you the

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 1opportunity to be selective and make in a summary way any
 2of the points that you want to make again in your oral
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I have made the principal statements from this.
 5I repeated them in my opening statement yesterday. My
 6books have received high praise from established academic,
 7official and government historians in every country where
 8they have been published. I just mention the names of
 9Professor Hugh Trevor-Roper, AJP Taylor, Professor MRD
10Foot, Captan Stephen Roskill, Professor Norman Stone,
11Professor Donald Cameron Watt. The reason I
12have mentioned those names, as your Lordship will see in
13your files copies of the reviews and praise that these
14people have given to my works.
15     I have not only written about World War II, of
16course; I have also written about other matters like the
17Hungarian Uprising and the German Uranian Research
18Programme during World War II.
19     John Keegan, the Defence Correspondent for The
20Daily Telegraph (and your Lordship will be aware why I
21have stated this) has written: "Two books in English
22stand out from the vast literature of the Second World
23War: Chester Wilmott's 'The Struggle for Europe'
24published in 1952 and David Irving 'Hitler's War'" which
25appeared three years ago. That kind of quotation rather
26gives the lie to the statement by the Second Defendant

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 1which we saw on video that nobody takes me seriously.
 2     It says here in about 1975 Adolf Hitler's
 3Private Secretary, the late Christa Schroeder, gave me a
 4small pencil sketch, a self-portrait of Adolf Hitler,
 5which he had retrieved from his desk in the last days of
 6the war. She gave it to me as a gift and I keep it. I do
 7not, of course, have any kind of portrait of Adolf Hitler
 8on my office hanging on the wall in the way that has been
10     Am I proceeding in the correct manner
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, I think this is exactly what I think is the right way
12of proceeding
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I consider myself to be an expert on the careers of the
14principal Nazi leaders, including specifically Adolf
15Hitler, Goring and Dr Josef Goebbels. I am an expert on
16the archives about these people. I am expert on the
17current state of research into German and other wartime
18persecution and liquidation of the European Jewish
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You said yesterday -- I am sorry to interrupt you-- that
21you did not regard yourself as being an historian of the
22Holocaust, can you just in your evidence ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     This is true
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- explain what you mean
25 A. [Mr Irving]     There is a subtle difference. I am an expert in the state
26of research but not on their findings, so to speak. I am

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 1an expert on the way they go about their research, but not
 2so much on the actual details of the Holocaust, and so on
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     When you say "they", who do you mean by "they", the
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No, my Lord. I am sorry, I should have made myself
 6clear. I mean the Holocaust historians, the historians
 7who specialize in that topic
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Over the years I have collected a very large archive of
10original documents and copies of original documents, like
11private diaries and papers like that, from the top Nazi
12leaders using various techniques and methods, all entirely
13legal and, as part of my technique, I would then donate
14these papers immediately to the suitable archives so they
15are immediately available to other historians.
16     My views upon politics are on page 1047
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes
18 A. [Mr Irving]     The Defendants have chosen to refer to my politics and
19they wrongly categorise them. They say that I am extreme
20right-wing or something like that. I have never belonged
21to a political party, left or right, except I think
22I joined the Young Conservatives at University.
23     My father stood as a Labour candidate in the
241945 General Election. I voted for Sir James Goldsmith,
25my Lord, if I can make that point in the last election, in
26other words, neither one nor the other. I regard myself

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 1as a laissez faire Liberal. In other words, I do not
 2really care much about politics so long as they spend the
 3money on hospitals rather than Millennium Domes. I have a
 4family reason for saying that.
 5     I do not look down on any section of humanity,
 6either coloured immigrants, I have regularly employed
 7them, or females. Your Lordship will appreciate the
 8reasons why I make these points. I have five daughters,
 9in fact -- I am sorry, I had five daughters.
10     I do not look down on the mentally or physically
11disabled. I admit to having little patience with smokers
12and none at all with drug abusers. This is not to say
13that I have applauded -- I have to state this because
14I will probably be asked about it -- I cannot say that I
15have applauded the uncontrolled tide of commonwealth
16immigration into this country.
17     Like most fellow countrymen of my background and
18vintage, I regret the passing of the Old England.
19I sometimes think, my Lord, that if the soldiers and
20sailors who stormed the beaches of Normandy in 1944 could
21see what England would be like at the end of this century,
22they would not have got 50 yards up the beach. I think
23they would have given up in disgust
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You said you are getting towards paragraph 23 of your
25witness statement, 1048
26 A. [Mr Irving]     My reputation as an historian

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