Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 189

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    I say that for this reason. Although it is
 1available in the archives in Auschwitz and in Moscow for a
 2very long time. The main report was served at the end of
 3July last year. I do not have all of that much sympathy
 4with Mr Irving -- I have some, of course, because he is in
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. I think the point you make is actually
 7a fair one, that Professor van Pelt makes his point in his
 8report without actually exhibiting the source material,
 9but it is pretty obvious what he is saying.
10 MR IRVING:      My Lord, it is not. Architectural consultants who
11have asked us for detailed drawings of many levels of the
12construction work that went on over a period. They need
13to know where the light switches were, that kind of
14thing. You cannot see that kind of information from the
15rather smudgey photocopies that were exhibited to the
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes.
18 MR RAMPTON:      You do not do any better if you look at the nice
19coloured photographs which Professor van Pelt has now
20produced in that regard. They are just better copies of
21what he has already reproduced.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am very reluctant to adjourn the case.
23I really think we have to get on for obvious reasons.
24 MR IRVING:      My Lord, can we not start the cross-examination on
25non-Auschwitz matters which will certainly take us up to
26the weekend? I am sure Mr Rampton has a any number of

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 1questions he is curious about.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am perfectly easy. I think you had between
 3you reached agreement. It appears, perhaps, that is not
 4really right. I do not mind in which order we take
 5things. I think there is something to be said for taking
 6Auschwitz first, but if you prefer that it was dealt with
 7the other way round, that is fine.
 8 MR RAMPTON:      I can deal with a whole range of different topics,
 9not necessarily in an orderly fashion. That is the
10trouble. What I am anxious to avoid is when I do get to
11Auschwitz in cross-examination, perhaps it might be
12tomorrow, for example, Mr Irving says, "Well, I am sorry,
13I cannot answer that, I have not had time to think about
14it or to instruct myself". That is absolutely hopeless.
15He then comes back, having heard my questions, and we have
16to start all over again.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, I see that.
18 MR RAMPTON:      I am not really interested in attributing blame
19for these things. He is obviously not up to speed on
20Auschwitz and I do not really want to cross-examine him on
21it until he is because it is an unfair contest, apart from
22anything else.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Let us do it the other way round then. Let
24us take the other issues. That is really a course that
25you prefer, is it not?
26 MR IRVING:      That was my original proposal, my Lord.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:      When Professor van Pelt gets here (which is the
 2week after next, I think) then I will start on Auschwitz
 3because that, I would think, would have given Mr Irving
 4enough time
 5 MR IRVING:      We are looking forward to it, in fact
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      We will proceed on the opposite basis of
 7taking all the other issues
 8 MR IRVING:      I am indebted, my Lord
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      It is up to you in which order you deal with
10them, but you will start with your reputation and history
11which I think you can take quite ----
12 MR IRVING:      In cross-examination
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      No, this is in chief
14 MR IRVING:      Right
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Then it is really entirely up to you,
16I think, how much you want to say in chief, and it is not
17very easy for you to do because in a sense you will be
18making a speech from the witness box, or whether you want
19to simply submit yourself to cross-examination on these
20various other issues, Dresden, Hitler's role, and the
22 MR IRVING:      The court would simply certainly prefer for reasons
23of integrity that the evidence should be under oath
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I would, I think that is the right way of
25doing it
26 MR IRVING:      Then the sooner I go into the witness box,

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 1therefore, the better. That may well speed things up
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. So you are happy to proceed in that
 4 MR IRVING:      I am happy to proceed in that way, provided the
 5Auschwitz stage is left until later on
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      It is going to be. Mr Rampton, you are
 7content with that as well
 8 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, I agree to that. I will find something else
 9to start with
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am sure you will. Mr Irving, the next
11problem, and you can really choose whichever you prefer,
12that is the witness box. If you find it more convenient
13to stay where you, I am perfectly happy if Mr Rampton is
14happy at this stage anyway, for the evidence to be given
15from there. When it comes to cross-examination, the
16position may be different because I do not see that you
17can really cross-examine along a row. But it may be
18easier for Mr Irving to stay where he is for the time
20 MR RAMPTON:      That is what Miss Rogers suggested. It is a good
21idea. He has all his papers there. When he gets to be
22cross-examined, we may have to have a break while he gets
23all the stuff up there because I cannot cross-examine side
24by side
25 MR IRVING:      I would prefer, my Lord, the first part of the
26cross-examination should be done from box, but when we

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 1come to the Auschwitz stage where we will have papers,
 2I might revert to your Lordship's original proposal, that
 3it should be continued with me standing here
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      We will see about that when the time comes.
 5But would you prefer to give your evidence-in-chief ----
 6 MR IRVING:      I would prefer to give it from the traditional
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Unless you want to deal with anything else,
 9I think you ought to go and be sworn
10 MR IRVING:      Very well, my Lord. At some stage, of course, my
11Lord, your Lordship is aware wish to deal with the
12Hizbollah allegations and the Farrakhan allegations, but
13this can done at any time
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think even that is best done from the
15witness box because this is a libel trial, it is a rather
16unusual one, but you will want to give what one might call
17some of the standard defamation evidence
19 Examined by the Court
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, I think the best thing is if
21I give you a little bit if a steer, if I can put it that
22way. Would you rather sit down
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure that I need scaring
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     No, the word I used was "steer" not "scare", simply so
25that your evidence has a shape that might make it more
26comprehensible. Shall we start by your full name address

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