Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 176 - 180 of 189

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are familiar with the Jager report, are you not
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but I very much hope we are going to have a look at
 3the original
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are going to have a look at the original. We certainly
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It comes from the Russian archives
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I want to be sure, because I do not want to do you any
 8disservice at the end of this case. I want to make sure
 9I have your position clear. You do not accept that that
10document, let alone its forerunner, you say it is not a
11forerunner, back in August 1941 is any evidence that the
12killings in the East by shooting, not by gassing, but the
13killings in the East by shooting is any evidence at all
14that this was a systematic process approved of at the
15highest level of the Third Reich
16 A. [Mr Irving]     That is my position
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. Thank you very much. Now I want to pass to
18something different. What you will need now are copies of
19your two books, 1991 Hitler's War and Goebbels Master Mind
20of the Third Reich. You will also need in case we need to
21refer to it, a copy of your opening yesterday. You will
22need D2 (i) (ii) and (iii). Forgive me, Mr Irving, I am
23just trying to find the document. I apologise for that
24pause, my Lord. Mr Irving, yesterday you made quite
25something of this document from the PRO which records
26statements made ---

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The Bruns document
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- by General Bruns but secretly recorded
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     That is true
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You told us that this document has considerable
 5evidentiary value. It is not self-serving
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Not self-serving, yes
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And that it has the ring of truth from the phraseology and
 8the things he describes, is that right
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, very similitude
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Do you have a copy of it with you or can you tell us
11where to find it
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the text is in my opening speech of course
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will try to use the same version as you
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 22
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, page 22
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      It is not 100 per cent accurate I remember
17noticing, but I do not think there is any real
19 MR RAMPTON:      I am just checking, my Lord, to see whether the
20two little passages which I have are the same
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, the one right at the end
22 MR RAMPTON:      There is one, as your Lordship says, right at the
23end. As far as I can tell at a quick glance, the words
24which Mr Irving has printed in his speech are the same as
25I have on the document. So perhaps we can use the
26speech. In the middle of the page just below the middle

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 1of page 22, Mr Irving, General Bruns reports having, as it
 2were, been subjected to the experience of one of these
 3Riga shootings. He reports that a man called Altemeyer
 4said to him upon his protest at the use of, at the misuse
 5of he waste of valuable manpower, Altemeyer said: "Well,
 6let it be shot in accordance with the Fuhrer's orders. I,
 7that is Bruns, said: Fuhrer's orders? Answer from
 8Altemeyer: Yes. Whereupon he, Altemeyer, showed me,
 9Bruns, his orders." Yes
10 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is what is in the PRO document. Therefore,
12presumably, General Bruns actually said that
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And was recorded as having said it by Allies. If you go
15right to the end, the narrative is that they managed,
16Bruns and his colleagues managed, to get back to Berlin,
17perhaps to Canaris, an account of this shooting, perhaps
18in the form of an objection, is that right
19 A. [Mr Irving]     My reading of the document was -- in fact, we know also
20from other sources -- Gerald Fleming had done some very
21good work on this particular episode, that an Army
22Lieutenant wrote a report, having been sent down the road
23to go and have a look for himself by these cowardly German
24Generals, and this Army Lieutenant's report was sent over
25the Army Lieutenant's name up to Hitler's headquarters by
26the route of Admiral Canaris who was the Head of the

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 1German Intelligence Service
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I start at the bottom of the next page 24 where
 3"Canaris" begins a line, do you see that
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Canaris had the unsavoury task of waiting for the
 6favourable moment to give the Fuhrer certain gentle
 7hints. A fortnight later I visited the Oberburgermeister,
 8or whatever he was called then, concerning some other
 9business. Altenmeyer(?) triumphantly showed me: 'Here is
10an order just issued prohibiting mass shootings on that
11scale from taking place in future'. They are to be
12carried out more discreetly.' From warnings given me
13recently, I knew that I was receiving still more
14attentions from spies", etc.
15     "They are to be carried more discreetly in
16future" means the shootings are to be carried out more
17discreetly in the future
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I would even go so far as to say mass shootings
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It does not mean that the mass shootings were to
20come to an end, does it
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Not in that sentence, no
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What it means is that they must be more cleverly disguised
23from anybody who might notice what was going on
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Just whilst you are on that document, you
26told us, I think, that Bruns would have been a Colonel

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     He was a Colonel at that time in the Engineer Corp. and he
 2was a Major-General at the time of his capture in 1945
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And Altenmeyer, presumably, was his superior officer
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No, sir. Altenmeyer, his real name was "Altemeyer",
 5without an "n", he was a 21 or 22 year-old very junior SS
 6officer who just happened to have the lives of these
 7unfortunate people in his power
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Hitler's orders go to him before they go to the Colonel
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     No, sir the orders went -- I think the route was that
10Hitler told Himmler, who sent the message to Joachim which
11is what we talked about yesterday which we, British,
12intercepted and decoded, so we had an inkling of what was
13going on. Himmler said to Joachim, "Come straight to
14headquarters, that it had to stop".
15     In Himmler's diary on December 1st 1941, the
16following day, I noticed yesterday there is the telephone
17call from Himmler to Heydrich on December 1st, SS
18Obergruppenfuhrer Heydrich "Executzionan in Riga", the
19executions, the shootings, in other words, in Riga, they
20talked about this very episode again on the day after it
21happened; and when Joachim came -- unfortunately, I cannot
22show you this, my Lord, that bundle is still at home; we
23know it from Himmler's diary in Moscow -- Joachim came to
24see Himmler on December 4th. Himmler wrote in his diary
25that evening that he dined with him at 9.30 p.m. and the
26topic of their conversation which Himmler also noted was

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