Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 189

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    You are regarding it in vacuo again. The episode which
 1beginning of the end, but it was the end of the beginning
 2I think Churchill said. This was Stalingrad, it was
 3encircled, El Allgemeine, the battle had been won. The
 4Germans were now seeing the writing on the wall and it may
 5well be that Himmler thought this was a good time to show
 6this kind of thing to Hitler
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And for why
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I just remind you once again, this document is in my
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. We are going to look at your books in some detail
11further on down the road, not today, Mr Irving, except for
12one remaining purpose
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what worries me about why we are spending the
14court's valuable time on looking at this document when
15I have gone into in great detail in my book
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because, Mr Irving, I think your position is that mass
17killings ---
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- not by gas but by other means were not systematic
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I have said all along mass killings occurred on the
21Eastern Front. This is the Eastern Front
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then we started this little digression, if you
23remember, by your asking me what I meant by "systematic"
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I said and you agreed there are all those meldungs that go
26back to Heydrich's office

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Halfway up the hierarchy
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Or whatever, but quite a long way up, halfway up the RHSA,
 3he is head of the RHSA in Berlin
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is quite close to Himmler
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who is quite close to Mr Hitler
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then this was another example designed only to illustrate
10this, that a reputable historian might well conclude that
11this document would not have surprised Adolf Hitler one
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Might not have
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Well, surely, use your imagination, Mr Irving, if
15I am Adolf Hitler I am king of the German world, as it
16were, and this is put in front of me and it represents
17something that I do not approve of, I am going to go
18through the roof, am I not
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not say he did disapprove of the killings of the Jews
20on the Eastern Front
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He did not
22 A. [Mr Irving]     He did in December 1941 in the case of the German Jews
23being killed. He was quite plain. I mean Himmler sent
24the message which the British decoded ordering the man
25responsible to come immediately to headquarters, but the
26killings on the Eastern Front of the Russian Jews and the

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 1others, Hitler did not care about them
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is South Russia, the Ukraine and Bialystok which is
 3on the border then of Poland and Russia
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Still the Eastern Front according to my map
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Though by 1942 quite a long way behind the Eastern Front
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the rear Eastern Front area. It is the area in which
 7the SS still operated
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is miles away. It is right over, well, as you say,
 9Stalingrad. This is the height of he battle for
11 A. [Mr Irving]     But it is the area in the rear of the Eastern Front where
12the Einsatzgruppen had h task of pacifying and cleansing
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Before I move on to something else, do you distinguish in
14your own mind a sensitivity in Hitler towards the murder
15of central or western Jews, German Jews, and the murder of
16363,000 Eastern Jews
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure what that question means, but if I say that
18one of his staff, Walter Havel, whose diary I had, said
19that if you want to understand Hitler's attitude to
20humanity was the way that a man might look on an ant heap,
21and that is how he regarded the Eastern peoples whether
22they were Jewish or not, but he very definitely intervened
23to stop the killing of German Jews at the time that
24I specified. So there was clearly a distinction in his
25own mind at that time
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are talking about two events a year apart

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you are talking about two events a year apart. Also
 2you are talking about the giving of the order and the
 3receiving of meldung
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, surely, but that is in a completely different
 5context, Mr Irving, as you very well know. You use what
 6you say as Hitler's opposition to the Riga killings as
 7having some kind of relevance to this document. Tell me
 8what the relevance is
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Hitler clearly intervened, if we can assume that the fact
10that the telephone call in the first place was made from
11Hitler's bunker, and if we know that the next day Himmler
12was ordered to send or Himmler was required to send a
13radio message to the man who had carried out the killings
14telling him that he had overstepped the mark, that he had
15to follow the guidelines in the future with outsettled
16Jews, the ones sent from Germany, in other words, and this
17is clearly an indication that German Jews were kept in a
18different category because the killings then stopped as
19the historians agree for several months as far as the
20German Jews were concerned, but the killing operations of
21non-German Jews behind the Eastern Front continued and
22obviously, according to this document, on a huge scale.
23I can only repeat why are we wasting our time looking at
24this document which I have printed in my books, which
25I agree is authentic, I am not going to challenge the
26authenticity of it

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Or the likely conclusion to be drawn from it that Hitler
 2will have seen it
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     We have agreed that it is probable that given that is says
 4"forgaleg" it is probable that it was shown to Hitler
 5because that is the phrase they would have used
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You deny, however, that there is any evidence that the
 7shootings in East were systematic in the sense that they
 8got up and were approved, got up to and were approved by
 9the highest level
10 A. [Mr Irving]     To justify the word "systematic" I would want to not just
11one out message and one in message which is all we have
12separated by 18 months, I would want to see a flow of out
13and in and out and in, in the way that we are accustomed
14to seeing them in the archives
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have read what I call in shorthand the EMs coming in
16from the East to Heydrich's office, have you not
17 A. [Mr Irving]     They go up to Heydrich's office and hey are detailing
18purely these security operations
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Security operations. I mean they list killings of
20hundreds of thousands of Jews, as Jews, as Jews, not as
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, let us have a look at all the other ones and see how
23they are categorized
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will do
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree that the Jews are being brought in under that
26umbrella. They are being killed under that camouflage

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