Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 189

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Earlier they would have been less. We do not have the
 2other 50 or do we
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I am saying that these reports ---
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got ---
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     No. What I am saying is that the other reports in the
 6Meldung series are not necessarily statistics. They may
 7be as I gave one example, a typical thing would be a
 8report on a two-man midget torpedo operation against the
 9Tirpitz where Himmler's men had caught the British seamen
10involved and had them executed and that would go to Hitler
11as a meldung to the Fuhrer at exactly this time. So what
12I am saying is that this kind of meldung with these kinds
13of statistics to Hitler on an Einsatzgruppen operation is
14an orphan. You cannot produce to me one similar document
15in that series
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Have we got any of numbers 1 to 50
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I have at home, my Lord, yes
18 MR RAMPTON:      Do they look like this? I am not saying the
19wording is similar, but do they look like this
20 A. [Mr Irving]     No. This is just something that Himmler sent in because
21he thought it is just as interesting to Hitler midget
22torpedo operations or the rubber plant that he is working
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are know at the end of 1942 with this document
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you are trying to justify the system, the fact
26that they were systematically put in on the basis of

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 1reports like this and I am saying this is the only such
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the only one which has survived
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No. There is a complete series
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many are there in this form with a large Fuhrer type
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I have only seen one such report reporting statistics of
 7this kind. All the others are in the large Fuhrer type
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They are
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the ones about the two-man torpedoes and things like
10that. They make fascinating reading. They are obviously
11of great interest
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you suggest that that report to Hitler of 363,000
13plus Jews executed in those eastern territories by the end
14of 1942 bore no relation to the order that the
15Einsatzgruppen should report to Hitler on the activities,
16on their activities, on their work, in the East
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it may have born, and we know from the decoding
18operations of the Einsatzgruppen regularly reported their
19killing operations and there are enormous figures involved
20in them
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then, Mr Irving, can we face reality? There is an order
22in August 1941 that these people shall report to the
23Fuhrer on their activities
24 A. [Mr Irving]     The Fuhrer wishes to be kept constantly informed on the
25Einsatzgruppen operations.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right, he wishes to have continuous report

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the result, as I have put it, in the result in December
 31942 he gets just such a report
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, I do not think you can say that because somebody gives
 5an order in August 1941 and a document turns up, what, 16
 6months later this is the result of that
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why not
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     It may have been but it may not
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why not
10 A. [Mr Irving]     If it had turned up two weeks later then I would say yes
11there is probably a very clear link between one and the
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If in August 1941 at the time that the Einsatzgruppen were
14just starting their work there is an order in place that
15the Fuhrer is to be supplied with regular reports of their
16work, it is not at all surprising that by December 1942
17that system is still in place and these reports are still
18coming in, is it
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I disagree. Suppose in August 1941 you ask for a plumber
20to come and fix a sink, and finally in December 1942 a
21firm of plumbers contacts you and says, "here is an
22estimate for fixing your sink", it does not necessarily
23mean there is any connection between them
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not a very good analogy, Mr Irving. I do not ask
25the plumber for continuous plumbing over a period of time
26all over a large part of Eastern Europe. Better keep off

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 1those sorts of analogies
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     But then where are the other continuous reports,
 3Mr Rampton? I have not seen them
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I do not know where they are, Mr Irving
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     This is one report
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But this is a report of some of the work of the
 7Einsatzgruppen in the East to be placed before the
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     But this was not the only task of Einsatzgruppen. The
10Einsatzgruppen had a whole bunch of tasks they carried
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Irving, I really do think that you ought
13to consider the position. Hitler gives an order that he
14wants to be kept regularly informed about the shootings by
15the Einsatzgruppen
16 A. [Mr Irving]     No, he wants to be kept informed of the operations of the
18 MR RAMPTON:      The work
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      The work, whatever you like, kept informed.
20That suggests he wants to be told on a repeated basis what
21is going on
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Are you suggesting that for some reason he countermanded
24that order or that it was not obeyed or what
25 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I am not, but I am not saying that it is established
26to my satisfaction at any rate that this document

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 1is -- I am sure what the relevance is -- that this
 2document is the direct product of that order
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, forget about whether it is the direct product.
 4Would you not think it a reasonable inference that there
 5would have been reports in one shape or form or another to
 6him reaching Hitler's desk of the number of people being
 7shot by the Einsatzgruppen
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     One would have expected it, but this is the only one we
 9have and this is what surprises us
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So you agree that one would expect that there would have
11been other similar reports
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, my Lord
13 MR RAMPTON:      Mr Irving, let us look at it in a slightly
14different way. If, as you have proposed on occasion, the
15killings by the Einsatzgruppen in the East and some of the
16police battalions and some of the local malitia were
17merely, I say "merely" I do not mean to diminish what
18happened, but in the sense of structure, merely criminal
19acts by local maverick SS commanders and others, nobody
20would have dreamed of putting this document before
21Hitler,, would they
22 A. [Mr Irving]     You are regarding it in vacuo again. The episode which
23I recounted was at the end of 1941. The clock has now
24moved on one year, many things have happened. Germany has
25started to lose. People are getting frantic. The tide has
26turned as Churchill himself said, it was no longer the

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