Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 189

<< 1-5186-189 >>
    Yes. There are some people killed under in fact four
 1headings, August, September, October and November. So it
 2does not actually begin on 1st September; it begins
 3earlier. The second category are partisan helpers and
 4what are "vanda verdicta"
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Partisan suspects
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Suspects, yes. In 2C it says: First of all, arrested,
 7that is subcategory (a). Then it says subcategory (b),
 8numbers executed, a total of 14,257. In subcategory (c)
 9it says explicitly, does it not, "Jews executed"
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the total there is 363,211
12 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What would the Fuhrer think when he saw that. You tell
14us? You are the Hitler historian
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think that my imagined response on behalf of the
16Fuhrer is evidence in this case
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      No. I think that is wrong, if I may say so.
18I thought you might say that, but you are an historian.
19It is your job to make sense of a document, if you can.
20I therefore think it is not only a proper question, it is
21quite a significant question
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well ---
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To be asked what you think this would have conveyed to
24Hitler, which is I think what Mr Rampton was asking
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Firstly, I accept the document was in all probability
26shown to Hitler. Secondly, I think in all probability he

.   P-264

 1paid no attention to it. The reason being the date. This
 2is the height of the Stalingrad crisis. Every waking
 3moment he is waiting for news that the fourth army that he
 4sent to rescue the sixth army, to relieve the sixth army,
 5had broken through the ring, the battleship Sharn Horse is
 6out on the high seas in the Arctic Circle just about to be
 7sunk that same day as it is shown to him. He has an awful
 8lot of things on his plate. You asked me to imagine, my
 9Lord, the situation and I can imagine the situation that
10the Fuhrer, Heydrich Himmler has thought that this is an
11opportune moment to slip a document into the heap to be
12shown to the Fuhrer which he can use one way or the other
13as time may come later on, either to say, "look how well
14I did, mein Fuhrer", or on the other hand to say, "But
15I told you at the time we had done that." There is a
16reason why I say this because we have another document
17later on called Korherr report with which I am sure the
18Defendants are familiar, where Himmler goes to some
19lengths to camouflage the documents so Hitler cannot see
20what is going on, and references to special treatment and
21so on are actually excised from the document before it is
22shown to Hitler. So taking this in conjunction with other
23documents, but I would attach no evidentiary value to what
24I just said whatsoever, because it is literally
25speculating on the basis of very thin evidence, on the
26basis of the date, on the basis of my knowledge from other

.   P-265

 1source of what else was going on at that time in Hitler's
 2War. It is a mistake to contemplate documents like in
 4 MR RAMPTON:      Oh yes
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     At the same time as documents like this are happening, if
 6I can put it like that, all sorts of other things are
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sure, but one, only one, and you see, Mr Irving, we are
 9not on this side of the court setting out to prove what
10did happen, we are only interested in the evidence which a
11reputable historian would put into the scales and weigh
12before arrival at a conclusion, one obvious explanation of
13this document, which in fact is generated by the document
14before it in the bundle if you look at it, is it not? The
15original report is dated 26th December 1942 and comes from
16the higher SS and police leader in South Russia, etc.,
17does it not
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So somebody has taken the trouble back at Berlin to have
20this typed up in the large Fuhrer type
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Somebody has taken the trouble to put it in front of
23Himmler who has signed it as we see on its fourth page, my
24Lord, that is page 9, and somebody has taken the trouble
25to put it in front of Hitler
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes

.   P-266

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why should they do that
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Somebody has sent it to be put in front of Hitler, yes
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you agree that the probability is that he saw it
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Or that it was put in front of him
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why should they do that if they did not think he would
 8want to see it
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Because Hitler has personally given orders for the
10security operations on the Eastern Front. Hitler at a
11very early date after the operation Barbarossa began, the
12attack on Russia, issued instructions to Heydrich that he
13wanted to be kept regularly informed on the operations of
14the Einsatzgruppen
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And on 1st August 1941 Mullar, the head of the Gestapo
16told Einsatzgruppen that, did he not, or reminded
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is correct. That is the document I am referring
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is the beginning of the system, if I may call it
20that, and this is one of the end results, is it not? That
21is how the system matures
22 A. [Mr Irving]     We are trying to justify the word "systematic"
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Do not worry too much about what Mr Rampton
24may or may not be trying to do
25 MR RAMPTON:      It is not a joint exercise with you, Mr Irving
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I was in the dark as to what was contentious about this

.   P-267

 1document, because I have actually used in document in my
 2book Hitler's War, my Lord. I have given the data. I
 3have given the figures. I have reported it in detail.
 4There is no mystery about it. I have not tried to conceal
 5it the way that my opponents have concealed the documents
 6they do not like
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I am not here representing your opponents
 8except in so far as you have sued some people for libel.
 9Beyond that I have no role
10 A. [Mr Irving]     You are representing my opponents
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In this case
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What, you mean Professor Lipstadt has suppressed
14documents, is that what you are trying to say
15 A. [Mr Irving]     You said I am not representing your opponent
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am not. You said "in the way that my opponents have
17suppressed documents". I said I do not answer for those
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Those opponent you are not representing
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I do not represent them. Here is a document which
21appears to represent a part of a systematic reporting to
22Adolf Hitler about the numbers of people killed by the
23Einsatzgruppen in the East
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I strongly disagree. This document is an orphan. Can you
25produce to me one other document shown to Hitler with
26figures of that magnitude reporting crimes on that scale

.   P-268

<< 1-5186-189 >>