Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 189

<< 1-5186-189 >>

 1 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, relatively
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      It is not, if I may say so, Mr Irving, very
 3detailed in relation to Auschwitz. I have the broad
 4thrust of your case, but I think there is a lack of
 6 MR IRVING:      My Lord, I am ignorant of the rules of procedure in
 7this matter. Would it be possible for me to be examined
 8in the witness box on two occasions?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. Let us get clear what is being
10proposed. It is being proposed that there should be a
11division of this trial really into two separate
12compartments, one is Auschwitz which is to an extent a
13free standing issue, it seems to me, a discrete issue.
14The other is all the other issues, such as the bombing of
15Dresden, Hitler's responsibility for the Final Solution,
16and so on. Obviously, they are not wholly separate, but
17I think they can be taken separately for the purposes of
18the trial
19 MR IRVING:      My Lord, I think a perfectly satisfactory solution
20which the court will, no doubt, find favour with is that
21I will go into the witness box today and submit myself to
22cross-examination on my pleadings, on the statements that
23I have made, on the correspondence that I have submitted
24to the other parties, on my opening statement and whatever
25other matters they choose to put to me. I will answer
26from the baggage that I carry around in my memory. No

.   P-119

 1doubt, I will have the opportunity at a later date,
 2possibly when I can go back to my diaries or other papers,
 3to produce materials that I could not produce from
 4memory. I am sure this would be an adequate solution to
 5the problem
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      May I make a suggestion and then you can
 7both, if you would like to, comment because I am very
 8conscious you are in person and this is, for obvious
 9reasons, not an easy case for you to conduct in person,
10but what I would suggest is that you now go into the
11witness box, that you deal with your reputation and your
12published works and so on, and you can take it that I have
13read your witness statement, that you then state, at any
14rate in broad outline, what your case is on Auschwitz --
15I am perfectly happy, as it were, to help you along by
16asking you questions and then you can elaborate in your
17answers -- and then for Mr Rampton to cross-examine you in
18relation to Auschwitz,
19 MR IRVING:      At a later date
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      No, straight off, why not? We are dealing
21with that issue first
22 MR IRVING:      Very well
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Then we will have, I do not know whether this
24will work in terms of timing, the expert evidence in
25relation to Auschwitz, hopefully, from your expert and
26from Professor van Pelt. Then you will have the

.   P-120

 1opportunity to make submissions about it either at the
 2very end of the case or, perhaps, at an earlier stage.
 3Does that sound a sensible way of proceeding to you
 4 MR IRVING:      I am not too happy about being cross-examined on
 5Auschwitz because our work on that is not complete. Your
 6Lordship may consider this is irrelevant, whether our work
 7on that is completed or not, because I am being asked
 8about my own work and my own writings, and things that
 9I may find out in the future are neither here nor there
10which is the phrase that I used yesterday, but I am sure
11your Lordship will have my interests at heart
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. I am very anxious that you should say
13whatever it is you want to say. Your case should be fully
14deployed. But the case has been brewing a very long
15time. I am a bit alarmed to hear that you are not, as it
16were, fully up to speed on the Auschwitz issue
17 MR IRVING:      We have been fully up to speed repeatedly, my Lord,
18with all the indications of that phrase. Every time we
19thought we were up to speed, we then received a fresh
20avalanche of binders with further documents
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, plus the 5,000 pages on Friday
22 MR IRVING:      Indeed, and more during the weekend
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Would you be content to proceed along the
24lines I have indicated and if you reach a point where, for
25example, Mr Rampton is putting to you a document which you
26have not had a chance to look at before, then you make

.   P-121

 1that point and ----
 2 MR IRVING:      Precisely.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      --- we ask him, perhaps, to go on to some
 4other point?
 5 MR IRVING:      I believe that the present atmosphere and climate
 6of opinion in court is, as Mr Rampton rather indicated, it
 7is not fair to sand bag your opponents with surprise
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      That is very much the way in which litigation
10is now conducted.
11 MR IRVING:      And we certainly have not done so. I found it
12mildly offensive that the Defendant should imply that we
13had. I have subjected the Defendants to a stream of
14questions over the last few weeks on their reports which,
15clearly, indicates which way we are thinking.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Well, may I now ask Mr Rampton whether he is
17happy to proceed in the way I have just outlined?
18 MR RAMPTON:      I will proceed in any way your Lordship wants; the
19problem I have starting straightaway with Auschwitz is
20simply a practical one. I do not have my Auschwitz papers
21here. I have to go and get them.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes.
23 MR RAMPTON:      We will not get to Auschwitz today? In that case,
24there is no problem, I can start tomorrow. If I do not
25have to cross-examine today, then I do not have any
26problem at all. I will start wherever it pleases your

.   P-122

 1Lordship tomorrow.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      But, in principle, the idea of dealing with
 3Auschwitz separately is one that I believe you are in
 4favour of?
 5 MR RAMPTON:      Yes. We were given an indication that Mr Irving's
 6opening in evidence-in-chief would take us up to about the
 7end of the week after next, that is to say, until Monday,
 824th January, which is why Professor van Pelt is not here
 9at the moment. So, in that sense I have a slight
10reluctance to start on Auschwitz until he gets here. It
11is not an overwhelming reluctance by any means at all.
12I can quite easily, on the other hand, start with
13something completely different. I can start with issues
14arising from Professor Evans' report without any problem
15at all.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      He covers really the whole gamut.
17 MR RAMPTON:      I know. From your Lordship's point of view, that
18is perhaps a little inconvenient. The alternative -- it
19is one I do not advance with any great warmth -- is to
20adjourn this case until the beginning of next week by
21which time Mr Irving should be up to speed on Auschwitz.
22     I say that for this reason. Although it is
23perfectly true that the source documents were served on
24him last week, Van Pelt's report, the fact is that a very
25large number of those reports, documents, plans are
26illustrated in van Pelt's report; that they have been

.   P-123

<< 1-5186-189 >>