Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 189

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    Subsequently of course the security operations were then
 1considered to be fair game
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We will come to report No. 51 on 29th December, 26th its
 3original date but 29th September 1942 further down the
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     That is just one of a kind of course
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, it is 51. It is No. 51. So presumably there were
 7another 50 before it
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but the others were about things like the progress
 9and development of the rubber plant and things likes that
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It may be so. It gives a figure, does it not
11 A. [Mr Irving]     316,000
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     363,000 plus as a separate category of Jews executed in
13three areas
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I think you ought to look at the whole document rather
15than just take one line out and consider the document a
16bit and the initials that are marked on it
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      But the figure is right, is it not? That is
19the figure
20 A. [Mr Irving]     This figure is typed on that document, my Lord, that is
21true, yes, and the document is typed in the special large
22faced typewriter which Himmler and Hitler used
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Himmler used that as well
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, on occasion he would use it to write speeches in,
26 MR RAMPTON:      And that document is signed by Himmler, is it not

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     One copy of it is that I have seen
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And it is marked for the Fuhrer, is it not
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a report to the Fuhrer, yes
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Suppose ---
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     It would be far more useful if we could have the document
 6before the court
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Unfortunately I do not have it here. So we will have to
 8come back to it. We will come back to it in detail I am
 9afraid. There is no way round it
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I am very familiar with the document of course. I think
11his Lordship should see it
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is why I can ask you about it, so am I, without your
13having it in front of you. Just suppose for the sake of
14argument that that document was shown Adolf Hitler
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why would it have been shown to Adolf Hitler
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I would ask the question the other way round
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, please
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I would say why is that figure buried on page 6 of that
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not. It is on the first page
22 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why we wrote it so I do not blunder into silly
23mistakes like that. I think I am right. You think you are
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not trying to catch you. Under the heading Meldung
26and Fuhrer or whatever it is

.   P-260

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, OK, why it is buried on that first page
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got it there
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     We have got it. Ah!
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I have not got my copy. We have only got one copy.
 5We do not play tricks like that in this court, Mr Irving.
 6If we do the judges get very cross with us. There is no
 7point to it
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     What I shall ask you is, does it have the notation at the
 9top: Fuhrer Fordalig
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did not hear that
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Does it have "shown to the Fuhrer" written on
12the top
13 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, it does. Well, it has a word which I believe
14means something like "presented" in handwriting. It is
15written by a man called Fife I think
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I know Fife and I know Gruchmann, the two initials on it.
17It has the letters ERL which means taken care of which may
18or may not have been shown to Hitler
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please, I do not want to come on to the question of fact
20whether the Fuhrer ever saw it. I would just like you to
21have a look at it
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Can I be told where it is
23 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, I am sorry. It is in H3 (i) at tab 3. It
24has a handwritten "6" on the bottom which is a modern
25numeral. Tab 3 page 6. It has a whole load of other
26numbers on it as well

.   P-261

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Written on the top it says "forgaleg" which means put
 2before. But it does not say whom to. But it does say
 3"put before"
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      It is cut off on my copy
 5 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, I know. I have had it read by a Germanist
 6and it does say that
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     The initial at the top is Fife and the initial below it is
 8Gruchmann, GR
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      So the manuscript is "forgaleg", is it
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
11 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you accept that means since it is addressed to the
12Fuhrer that it was shown to him
13 A. [Mr Irving]     On a high probability, yes, my Lord. I would have
14accepted that as being evidence that it had probably been
15shown to Hitler, but I would also draw attention to two or
16three details, if I may, since we are looking at the
17document now
18 MR RAMPTON:      I would rather we left it but you can if you want
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I personally think I would leave it
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to upset Mr Rampton by drawing attention to
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You will have an opportunity later
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not questioning the authenticity, my Lord, just
24aspects of it. Right
25 MR RAMPTON:      I do not mind at all, Mr Irving, if that is what
26you would like to

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     No, you have your own way
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I look at it, I see it describes itself, its subject
 3matter ---
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Now you are looking at details and I am not allowed to!
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think we will leave it to Mr Rampton.
 6I think he can ask you more questions if he wants to
 7 MR RAMPTON:      If you have answers to my questions rather than
 8speeches to make by all means give them, but I really do
 9prefer to proceed my own way, if I am allowed. It
10concerns reports to the Fuhrer about the campaign against
11the partisans. Is that a roughly right translation
12 A. [Mr Irving]     This is what I was about to point out, that the subject
13line is combatting partisan, partisan warfare
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is report No. 51 and it concerns Souther Russia, the
15Ukraine and Bialystok area, does it not
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is about the outcome of that campaign from 1st
18September until 1st December 1942
19 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, yes
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The first group, the first category are called van
21Diecknann which are ---
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It is their word for "partisans"
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, not always, sometimes it is partisanan, is it not
24 A. [Mr Irving]     They have various different words for the same thing. But
25Nazi jargon was to call partisan bandits
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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