Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 189

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    I will just read from the same -- there are many other
 1because again I do not want to be accused of taking
 2anything out of context.
 3     "Thank you Professor Faurisson for that
 4wonderful erudite discursion on the argument on the
 5controversy in which we are so emotionally and deeply
 6embroiled. It is fascinating to see how an academic, a
 7Professor, can enlarge upon what after all is just a tiny
 8detail of history, as it now turns out. He can hold it
 9under a microscope and see details, he can see details on
10those details and further details on those details. If
11I can just dot the i's and cross the t's to some of those
12details of details of details, he mentioned that after
13Fred Liechter did his truly epoch making investigation of
14the gas chambers at our Auschwitz, the forensic laboratory
15tests which yielded the extraordinary result which
16converted me" ---
17 A. [Mr Irving]     There you have it
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     " ... made me into a hardcore disbeliever."
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is right, is it not
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it was the Liechter report and that aspect of the
23Liechter report which summarised or discussed the
24laboratory findings that converted you into a hardcore
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I specifically say there the laboratory forensic tests

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 1Can we analyse what I am disbelieving there
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. It is much better we do not go down that road
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I thought so
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because we might find ourselves discussing Auschwitz now
 5which might not suit your book. Do you agree
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you said it did not suit your book in the
 7interval. You were very willing to start with Auschwitz
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Anyway, we are not dealing with Auschwitz
 9now. We are dealing really, are we not, with Holocaust
11 MR RAMPTON:      Yes
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have touched upon Mr Liechter. We are going to grapple
14with him much more extensively next week. We have touched
15upon Mr Liechter and it has led you to this conclusion
16that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz, is it not?
17I use the historic present. It was Mr Liechter's report
18and the bit about the laboratory tests which converted you
19into disbelief that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz,
20is that right
21 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that is correct. As a consequence of that, you have
23come to believe, perhaps it was a matter of protest,
24perhaps not, I do not know, that the Nazis did not use gas
25chambers for the extermination of Jews let alone millions
26of Jews

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I have become very sceptical of that element of the
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you have publicly expressed your disbelief
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Scepticism, yes
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So if and in so far as that forms a part of people's
 6belief about the Holocaust, you are a Holocaust denier
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     No
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you not
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     No. You do not have to believe in the whole to be a
10believer. How many of us are Christians who do not
11believe in every aspect of the Christian ethos
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All right. I do not think we ought to argue metaphysics,
13Mr Irving
14 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a metaphysics problem you are putting there. You are
15saying: Believe the whole thing or you are a denier and
16you are ruined. You will not eat lunch in this town
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I did not. I said in so far as that forms a part of
19people's belief about the Holocaust, you deny that part,
20put it like that
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, are you leading evidence on people ---
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am asking you ---
23 A. [Mr Irving]     --- people's belief
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am asking you a question. If it should be thought that
25it forms a part of common belief about the nature of the
26Holocaust that large numbers of Jews were systematically

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 1gassed in purpose-built gas chambers, you are a Holocaust
 2denier, are you not
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know this does form a large part of people's
 4beliefs and I do not think you are allowed to lead
 5evidence on people's beliefs in an effort to back it up
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, only one last little bit about that. Whatever
 7methods were used, and you deny the use of gas chambers,
 8whatever methods were used to kill large numbers of Jews,
 9whether they are 1, 2 or 3 or 6 million, you say it was
10not systematic, is that right
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Would you elucidate precisely what you mean by
12"systematic"? Something organised and ordered from the
13highest level of the Third Reich or something ordered from
14halfway up the system, or something that was just a system
15within the camp? I think the word "systematic" is a bit
16of a man trap
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You know quite a lot about the shootings in the East after
18Barbarossa in June 1941, do you not
19 A. [Mr Irving]     As I said this morning, they appeared to be chaotic,
20disorganized and arbitrary
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You know that ---
22 A. [Mr Irving]     As that one signal proves that I read out
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You know, do you not, that regularly, indeed frequently,
24reports were sent back in writing from the East, from the
25units in the East, from the Einsatzgruppen and other units
26in the East, enumerating and totalling the numbers of

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 1people shot
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Who were these reports from and to
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They are from the Einsatzgruppen to Heydrich's office in
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, this is true
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where they are, am I not right, distilled into, as it
 7were, summary reports, meldung
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Sometimes they were, yes
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And there are a large number of these documents, are there
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. From whom to whom did these reports go
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From the East to Berlin
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and the meldung you are talking about made in Berlin,
14were did they go to
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is a matter of speculation. Assume they went to
16Heydrich or his office. We are then, are we not, in the
17top echelons of the Nazi party at this time
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do we need to go any further
20 A. [Mr Irving]     We do not and I can make your life easier, Mr Rampton, by
21saying that Adolf Hitler was quite satisfied, I think,
22with the Einsatzgruppen operations on the Eastern Front in
23so far as they had the character of security operations
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Subsequently of course the security operations were then
26umbrellaed out to include the liquidation of Jews who were

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