Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 189

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you notice the difference there
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You can read it either, can you not
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     You read it your way, Mr Rampton
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. What you are saying ---
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     And we at this end of the wicket will read it our way
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What you say is the biggest lie is the assertion that
 7there were gas chambers. That is what you say you meant
 8by that
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, in which millions were killed. This is what I asked
10you not to do, not just to take individual phrases out of
11a sentence and say, look at this bit and look at that.
12You have to judge the whole
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not think that is very fair. I read the whole
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No, you did not. You said there were gas chambers, the
16biggest lie is that they were gas chambers, and I am
17saying that, no, what I say is the biggest lie is that
18there were gas chambers in which millions were killed
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I thought, Mr Irving, these were elements in the lie,
20factories of death, gas chambers and millions
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Only when taken together
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right
23 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, am I labouring these points too much
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, you are not at all. You deny that there were
25factories of death with gas chambers in which were
26liquidated millions of Jews. I have rephrased it so that

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 1it is absolutely crystal clear
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I thought I did not recognize it
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So that it is absolutely crystal clear, it has not an
 4ambiguity of what you wrote. I want to get your evidence
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Let me explain what underlies this sentence. Because it
 7is logistically impossible to kill millions of people in
 8the buildings that have been portrayed to us as factories
 9of death, therefore they cannot have been, and that is the
10big lie, if you try to cut that particular sentence up any
11particular way then it becomes (A) something I did not say
12and (B) worthless for the purposes of this court
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, you sorely tempt me to proceed to Auschwitz
14straightaway, but I will resist it
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I am looking forward to Auschwitz
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you accept that one version of the Holocaust which
17is generally understood, accepted and perceived ---
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Will you avoid using the passive voice so we know
19precisely who is generally accepting, understanding and
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Call it the public at large, the audiences to whom you
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Have you stood in Oxford Street with a clip board asking
24them, the public at large
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You will not commit yourself to a generally understood
26sense of the Holocaust then

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know what the generally sense of the Holocaust
 2is. I have given my version of it. You are giving the
 3court your version of it
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will you accept, Mr Irving, and if you will not say no, it
 5matters not, will you accept that one element in the
 6public perception of the Holocaust is the killing of
 7millions of Jews in gas chambers constructed by the Nazis
 8in various parts of Europe
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That I accept
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You will
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. And that you deny
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Why did you not ask that question right at the beginning
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I wanted to know what you meant
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It is one element
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It is one element, as you say
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you not accept that it was the major element in the
19public perception of what the Holocaust was about
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Now you are saying something different
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am asking you a further question
22 A. [Mr Irving]     You have changed from one element to a major element
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please, I have asked you about one element.
24You have accepted that is an element. I now ask you
25whether you do not also accept that it is the major

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     In what
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the public perception of the words "the Holocaust"
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. You do not know
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I have not take any statistical evaluations of what people
 6think in Oxford Street
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You deny, I think we are clear on this now, that the
 8Germans killed millions of Jews in gas chambers in
 9purpose-built establishments
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Will you repeat that sentence? You deny that Germans
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You deny that the Nazis, do not let us talk about Germans,
13let us talk about Nazis, that the Nazis killed millions of
14Jews in gas chambers in purpose-built establishments
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry to take so long to answer, but I have to see
18exactly what it is you are asking. Purpose-built
19establishments, millions of Nazis in gas chambers, yes
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Is the reason really why you deny that
21because you do not accept there were any such
22purpose-built factories
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the word "purpose-built" made my answer much easier,
24my Lord. You will understand why I say that when we turn
25to the architectural drawings and we bring in the evidence
26that I have

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And Liechter
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Liechter I think is something that I am not going to rely
 3on at all. As I said in my introduction on the Liechter
 4report, the Liechter report is flawed. We now have very
 5much better expertise
 6 MR RAMPTON:      Mr Irving, you do tempt me very sorely. When
 7Liechter first swam into your view, you had no expertise
 8about Auschwitz or about gassing or extermination or
 9anything like that, did you
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I did not need it. That was not what his report was based
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Mr Irving, when Liechter swam into view you had not
13studied this question at all, had you
14 A. [Mr Irving]     No
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think you said as much
16 A. [Mr Irving]     No
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yet I am right, am I not, that you announced Mr Liechter
18as having been, as it were, the corner stone of your
19conversion, if I may mix my metaphors
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Not Mr Liechter, but the laboratory analyses attached to
21his report. I am not sure whether I announced it in that
22way, but certainly that was the corner stone
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will just read from the same -- there are many other
24references but we need not look them all up. Page 6 of
25the same transcript. We will start, if we may, at the
26large paragraph in the middle of the page, timed at 30.28

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