Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 189

<< 1-5186-189 >>
    There is a lot of debate each way which, in my mind, is
 1something that is liable to dispute
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Mr Rampton, can I ask this question.
 3I thought, Mr Irving, when you were giving your
 4evidence-in-chief, I think it was in response to a
 5question from, you said you accepted that gassing had
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But to the limited sent that it had been carried out on an
 9experimental basis
10 A. [Mr Irving]     By experimental ---
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let me finish the question. I had understood that to be a
12reference to the gas vans being brought after the
13termination of euthanasia programme. Am I wrong? Is it
14wider than that
15 A. [Mr Irving]     By "experimental" I do not mean that men stood around in
16white coats with clip boards and stopwatches. It as just
17local SS commanders who had been given the job of
18disposing of these people and were looking for other ways
19of doing it. Certainly the gas vans were used, because in
20Adolf Eichmann's papers which I obtained in Argentina he
21describes having witnessed one such killing, and there are
22documents which satisfy me, which may be of great
23disinterest to the Defendants but they satisfy me that
24they are authentic that such killing trucks did exist,
25unless there are enormous coincidences in the use of
26language and words. The gas chambers story is

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 1sufficiently difficult to analyse, because on the one hand
 2you have apparently consistent testimony of people who
 3should have known, like the commandants and their
 4deputies, testifying to the fact that these killings were
 5carried out in gas chambers, and on the other hand you
 6have the logistical and agricultural impossibilities which
 7cannot be overlooked. I am sure that we will hear a lot
 8more about them later on in the trial
 9 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, perhaps. Then let us return finally to page
102 of tab 11 of this file. I hope you still have it open,
11have you
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 2, tab 11, yes
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. In the second paragraph timed at 12.13 the last
14sentence reads:
15     "If something didn't happen then you don't even
16dignify it with a footnote".
17     The "it" you are referring to there is the
18Holocaust whatever that may mean. Is that right
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is the gas chamber Holocaust
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I am not trying to be unfair, but according to the
21internal syntax of that statement the "it" is the
22Holocaust, is it not
23 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the gas chamber Holocaust and I am sure his Lordship
24is well aware of the fact this is a speech delivered under
25very strained circumstances without a script. So one does
26not put every word on the gold balance, as the Germans

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 1say. The mere fact it means the gas chamber Holocaust is
 2evident from the fact that if you look at the book I am
 3talking about, Hitler's War, there is any amount of
 4reference to the rest of the Holocaust story, namely the
 5shootings on the Eastern Front which are accepted in full
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I said I was not trying to be unfair. I wanted to take it
 8in stages
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     You are being very fair and you are being very patient
10with me, but I have to be very careful with my responses
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the four walls of that little paragraph the "it" that
12did not happen is the Holocaust, grammatically speaking,
13is it not
14 A. [Mr Irving]     We keep coming back to the same question
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Just say yes or no. It is very easy. I am not
16trying to trick you. It is, is it not? It is not a
17difficult question
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Which "it" are we talking about
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the last line: "If something didn't happen you don't
20even dignify it with a footnote". That follows, does it
21not, from the earlier part ---
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The something that did not happen is it
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The something that did not happen is the Holocaust if you
24look at the previous line
25 A. [Mr Irving]     No, the clause, "if something didn't happen", that is the

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All right, we will read the whole thing. If you read ---
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It is still going to say the same no matter how often you
 3read it
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "You won't find the Holocaust mentioned in one line, not
 5even a footnote. Why should we? If something didn't
 6happen then you don't even dignify it with a footnote."
 7The something that did not happen is the Holocaust in this
 8sentence, is it not
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     It is the clause if something did not happen. Let me
10explain to you, by this time I had encountered a very fine
11American editor Tom Condon, who was my American editor,
12American publishers have people who have editors who teach
13you how to write, and this particular editor said:
14"Mr Irving, don't waste time and ink telling your readers
15what has not happened." He said: "Don't say he didn't
16like dogs but he did like cats. You just write 'he did
17like cats'". This is what I am getting at there. You do
18not waste ink
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I follow that entirely, but let us look at the substance
20of the thing. The something that did not happen is the
21Holocaust, is it not, in this sentence
22 A. [Mr Irving]     The gas chamber Holocaust, yes
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, in the English, the something that did not happen
24is the Holocaust
25 A. [Mr Irving]     The whole of this speech is about the gas chamber, the
26whole of this part of the speech. You will notice the

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 1tape has previously jumped so we have no idea what has
 2been cut out or what has been accidently omitted
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I said I am said trying to be fair
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I must insist on fairness here, because I have stipulated
 5that I will accept these transcripts and allow you to make
 6great horseplay with them, except where they have been
 7edited, and that is a paragraph or a sentence has that has
 8been edited. It says specifically "tape jumps" which
 9means it has been switched on and switched off. You are
10getting the second half of a sentence
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I wish you would not be so nervous of me, Mr Irving.
12I said I am trying to be fair. Now look down at the other
13paragraph we looked at earlier. I am now going to put
14some words into your mouth. You have said in the earlier
15paragraph that the Holocaust did not happen. That is as
16plain as a pikestaff to anybody who can read English. Now
17we see, do we not, as you have been trying to tell us,
18what you mean by the Holocaust:
19     "The biggest lie of the lot is the lie that
20Germans had factories of death with gas chambers in which
21they liquidated millions of their opponents."
22 A. [Mr Irving]     My I intern that differently? I am sorry it is a
23question. I will intern that differently. The biggest
24lie of the lot is that the Germans had factories of death
25with gas chambers in which they killed millions of people
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Liquidated, yes

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