Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 189

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    I said "deliberately killed". How many innocent
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Now, you heard me say in my opening statement, Mr Rampton,
 3that I am not an expert on the Holocaust. What I would
 4now say would be a figure without any value whatsoever.
 5It would be just an assessment off the top of my head.
 6I can say what did not happen because you can apply
 7certain logistical principles, but I cannot say what did
 8happen. It would be a waste of this court's time for me
 9to make an assessment
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us break down your Holocaust denial then, so far as
11you will accept that you have made it. You dispute the
12word "millions"
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I dispute the word "millions"
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I do not think I have disputed the word "millions"
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So "millions" is only wrong so far as the gas chambers are
17concerned, is that right
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So there are no gas chambers, I think we know that, do we
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, if I may, I will not venture a question, but
22I will make a statement. A million people weigh 100,000
23tonnes. We are talking of a major logistical problem
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are not -- I think, Mr Irving, we are at
26cross-purposes. I am trying to understand what it is that

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 1you deny, not your reasons for denying it. That will come
 2much later on
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I am denying that any kind of multiples of millions of
 4people were killed in the gas chambers at Birkenhau
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Articles then of -- no, that is not what you have said
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I am very being very specific which makes it much easier
 8to nail me down
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, "factories of death" is plural
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, there were several factories of death, allegedly, at
11Birkenhau, the crematoria
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What you do you say about Sobibor, Treblinka, Belsac and
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Nothing at all. I am not an expert
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you deny that they were killed in gas chambers in those
17 A. [Mr Irving]     You did not hear what I said, Mr Rampton. I am not an
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have no opinion about that at all
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Except what I have read from other people. If other
21people come and tell me that, for example, there is no
22trace of any mass graves at Treblinka even now, then
23I begin to get suspicious about the story
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let me understand it, Mr Irving. By "factories of death"
25in this sentence on page 2 of tab 11, you had no intention
26of including in that phrase "factories of death" the

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 1installations, whatever they were, at Belsac, Treblinka,
 2Sobibor or Chelma, is that right
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you are asking me a question about a verbal
 4statement I made nine years ago and, if you wish, I will
 5look to see what the rest of the statement is and I will
 6tell you which parts of the universe I was talking about.
 7But ---
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your answer just now -- it may have been too quick an
 9answer; it was not, perhaps, your best answer -- was, "Oh,
10when I said 'factories of death' here, there were
11factories of death at Birkenhau"
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I presumed that as we are still talking about the
13Auschwitz phase of the cross-examination, you are talking
14about Auschwitz and Birkenhau
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am talking about what I call your Holocaust denier
16here you write a sentence or you speak a sentence,
17presumably written out before: "The biggest lie of the lot
18is the lie that the Germans had factories", plural, and
19I said that when I read it to you first time, "of death
20with gas chambers in which they liquidated millions of
21their opponents"
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us get back to the present. Which of those elements
24in that statement "factories", plural, "of death with gas
25chambers", plural, "in which they liquidated millions",
26plural, "of their opponents", which of those elements do

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 1you still deny
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     The millions in gas chambers
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Because, among other reasons, which we will come to later
 5on in this trial, the logistical problems for a start
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you do deny it
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I deny -- I use that word, it might be more proper to use
 8the word "contest" or "question", but certainly for your
 9purposes I will use the word "deny", that it was possible
10to liquidate millions of people in the gas chambers that
11had been presented us by historians so far
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I follow that. Are you retreating from your earlier
13answer that your use of the words "factories", plural, "of
14death" was confined to Birkenhau
15 A. [Mr Irving]     What, in this particular speech
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you wish me to read the speech so that I can answer
18that question
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no. I would rather you gave me an answer now; if you
20want to change it tomorrow, by all means do so. That is
21perfectly legitimate
22 A. [Mr Irving]     No, unless the Judge so orders, I think it would be
23improper for me to answer from memory about the content of
24a speech I made nine years ago
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think that is probably a fair point. It
26does mean that time is going to have to be taken up with

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 1it, and I am concerned we do not spend too long on it, but
 2glance through. I do not think it will take that long
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I am anxious to be responsive, my Lord, but I do not want
 4to ---
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I think that is fair, as I already said. Just glance
 6through and see whether you can get any help one way or
 7the other from the rest of it
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Whereabouts was it
 9 MR RAMPTON:      It is on page 2, tab 11
10 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, with respect, I do not see why I should be
11required to amplify a statement that I made nine years ago
12in any respect whatsoever or I should be required to add
13geographical locations on which I did not specify at the
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      You were not, with respect, being asked
16that. When you use that phrase "factories of death" ---
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I can certainly be helpful here and say that I think
18I am prepared to deny the possibility that the Nazis
19liquidated millions of people in gas chambers at any of
20their locations during the Third Reich.
21 MR RAMPTON:      That is very helpful
22 A. [Mr Irving]     But do not then start just taking elements of that
23sentence saying, "Oh, but you said this, the gas chambers"
24or "You said the millions" or "You said anywhere". The
25whole sentence in its totality is correct, and that is
26what I am testifying to

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