Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 189

<< 1-5186-189 >>

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     1425 right? The time
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, 1425. You told his Lordship this morning that, so
 3far as you could tell, these were accurate transcripts of
 4what you had said. I will read the sentence and you tell
 5me whether you want to ---
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me, you just said that I told his Lordship that
 7these were accurate transcripts of what I have said
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So far as you could tell, I think, yes. He asked you that
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I said with reservation, with the reservation that some of
11them have been subjected to editing
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, just let us have a look at this one sentence and
13then you can tell his Lordship whether you think it has
14been edited and in some way crafted to misrepresent what
15you said
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The one sentence, yes
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The one sentence: "The biggest lie of the lot, the blood
18libel on the German people, as I call it", that is you,
19 "is the lie that the Germans had factories of death with
20gas chambers in which they liquidated millions of their
22 A. [Mr Irving]     That is an accurate transcription of what I said
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did say that
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And did you regard that proposition, that the Germans had
26factories of death with gas chambers, plural, in

.   P-229

 1which they liquidated millions, plural, of their
 2opponents, at this date in November 1991 as a lie
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     A big lie, yes
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     A big lie
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is that proposition, is it not, Mr Irving, which most
 7people regard as representing not in any accurate or
 8meticulous, historical sense, but generally understood as
 9the Holocaust
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I disagree with that. I have made quite plain that in my
11mind most people when they think of the Holocaust think of
12everything they are shown on television. Mostly nowadays
13it is people being made to walk to the edge of a pit and
14being bumped off by soldiers holding rifles. That is the
15visual image that people now have
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. So that does not represent the Holocaust, millions
17of people being killed in gas chambers in factories of
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It represents a part of the Holocaust story
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So will you please go up the page two paragraphs to the
21words "timed at 1213", and explain what you meant by what
22you here said? "If you look at my great Adolf Hitler
23biography here, this bumper Adolf Hitler biography that we
24have only just published, in fact, it literally arrived
25off the printing process today, you will not find the
26Holocaust mentioned in one line, not even a footnote. Why

.   P-230

 1should we? If something didn't happen, then you don't
 2even dignify it with a footnote"
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     That is correct. The word "The Holocaust" you will not
 4find in that book
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What was the Holocaust that did not happen that you meant
 6to signify by those words
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     The way I then I specify it two paragraphs later which is
 8the millions being killed in the gas chambers. This makes
 9it quite plain it is all part of the same story
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So what it comes to is that the Holocaust, your own
11words ---
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- has been denied by you, does it not
14 A. [Mr Irving]     No. The Holocaust as defined here by me later on, the
15description of people being killed in factories of death.
16This is the description here which I say you will not find
17in the book and you will not find the word "Holocaust" in
18the book which you will not, because I think it is very
19confusing to use words like that. I mean, this is where
20the confusion has come from, that instead of you asking me
21a question about the shootings and a question about the
22gassings, you are asking a question about a vague concept
23called "the Holocaust" knowing that you will get me one
24way or you will get the other, rather like Mortimer's
25Fork. I think it would be more forensic if you were to
26ask specifically about what you mean rather than ask about

.   P-231

 1vague concepts
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you for your advice about how to conduct my case in
 3court, Mr Irving. I am grateful for that. What do you
 4think was the Holocaust about which Professor Lipstadt
 5wrote in her book
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Which Holocaust are we talking about
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am ---
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     The broad definition
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- asking you to answer my question, what is it in her
10book that you object to in the words "Holocaust denier"
11 A. [Mr Irving]     The word "denier" that is attached to it. That is what I
12object to it
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did not deny the Holocaust in that passage ---
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I denied the gas chambers. I denied that the Germans
15killed millions in gas chambers and we are going to have a
16great deal of interest when we get to that phase of this
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many people do you think -- I mean innocent people,
19I am not talking about bombing raids, Mr Irving, I mean
20innocent Jewish people do you think the Germans killed
22 A. [Mr Irving]     You mean like Anne Frank
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not mind whether they are like Anne Frank or not.
24How many innocent Jewish people ---
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I mean, she is a typical example and a very useful
26example to take because everybody has heard of Anne

.   P-232

 1Frank. She was innocent. I have daughters of my own and
 2if what happened to her happened to one of my daughters, I
 3would be extremely angry
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, I see, so Mr or Mrs Frank might not have been
 5innocent, is that what you are trying to say
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     But I asked you about Anne Frank; I did not ask about her
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am sorry, Mr Irving. The procedure in this court is
 9that you do not ask questions, I do. I asked you how
10many ---
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I did not ask a question. I just said, I mean, shall we
12talk about Anne Frank
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I do not want to talk about Anne Frank
14 A. [Mr Irving]     You want to talk about nameless, unspecified Jews so that
15later on we can say, "Well, I was not meaning those ones,
16I meant those ones"? The reason you do not want to talk
17about Anne Frank, of course, is because she is a Jew who
18died in the Holocaust and yet she was not murdered, unless
19you take the broadest possible definition of murder
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, this is becoming somewhat comical. We will get
21to Anne Frank along down the road, I assure you. She is
22part of Professor Evans' report, apart from anything else,
23for a completely different purpose.
24     I said "deliberately killed". How many innocent
25Jewish people do you say that the Nazis deliberately
26killed during the course of World War II. That was my

.   P-233

<< 1-5186-189 >>