Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 189

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    No. "A poison to which there is virtually no antedote,
 1is like being called a wife beater or a paedophile. It is
 2enough for the label to be attached for the attachee to
 3find himself designated as a pariah, an outcast from
 4normal society. It is a verbal Yellow Star". What did
 5you mean by "it"
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     The phrase "Holocaust denier"
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly. Now, then I would like you to look at some of
 8the things that you have said publicly or, at any rate,
 9semi-publicly. You have those two files there, the ones
10with the pink spines on them. Can we start, please, with
11the one which is, if I can find it, it is D2(i). Can you
12please turn to tab 9 which is the transcript of a speech
13you made at the Travelodge at the Airport Inn in Calgary,
14Alberta, on 29th September 1991. I myself quoted some
15part of this, I think, yesterday in opening for the
16Defendants. Can you please turn to page 4? If you think
17I am reading anything out of context, you must say so
18because then I will go back and start again
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      So take your time if you need it, Mr Irving
20 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I read the whole of this speech in the small
21hours of this morning in view of the fact that ---
22 MR RAMPTON:      Then can I start, please, halfway down the page,
23five lines above the paragraph break
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Sorry, I missed the page
25 MR RAMPTON:      Page 4, my Lord. There is a sentence which begins
26with the last word on the line "For", after the words "in

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 1one or two dramatic points". Do you have it
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I have that
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "For example, until 1988, I believed that there had been,
 4until 1988, I believed that three had been something like
 5a Holocaust. I believed that millions of people had been
 6killed in factories of death. I believed in the gas
 7chamber. I believed in all the paraphernalia of the
 8modern Holocaust". Now, what was "all the paraphernalia
 9of the modern Holocaust" that you believed in up to 1988
10 A. [Mr Irving]     The words that I had set out in the previous four lines,
11the factories of death
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The gas chambers
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Like everybody else in this room, I believed in them up to
16that point
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then comes this: "But 1988, when I came to Canada and
18gave evidence in the trial of Ernst Zundel as an
19historian, I met there people who knew differently and
20could prove to me that the story was just a legend"
21 A. [Mr Irving]     "That that story was just a legend"
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Quite right, thank you, "that that story", that is to say
23the Holocaust story in which you previously believed, "was
24just a legend. I changed my mind I've now revised the
25Hitler book so that all references to Auschwitz and the
26gas chamber and all the factories of death", so that would

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 1include Sobibor, Treblinka ---
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, you have inserted some words there. After,
 3where you read out "to prove that that story was just a
 4legend", you then verbally inserted the words "in other
 5words, the story of the Holocaust"
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Or something like that, and that is not in there
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Fair enough
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That story was referring to the paraphernalia
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You corrected my reading quite rightly, I said "the
11story", you said "that story". What does that mean in
12that context
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The paraphernalia, the equipment, the factories of death
14and the gas chambers
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, and the killing of millions of people
16 A. [Mr Irving]     No
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Really
18 A. [Mr Irving]     We have repeatedly made quite plain that the Nazis killed
19large numbers of people
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "I believed millions of people had been killed in
21factories of death"
22 A. [Mr Irving]     You see, this is why you said "the story" instead of "that
23story". You were trying to sweep up the whole of that
24sentence, including the millions of people, when it is
25quite plain that I am talking about the latter part of the
26sentence which is the paraphernalia

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, we will get nowhere if we argue about trivia of
 2that kind. What you had believed in ---
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not trivia, Mr Rampton, with respect, because a few
 4days down the line you will read back to me the transcript
 5and say, "But you agreed on January 12th that this was
 6what you were referring to", and that is why I am going to
 7be sticking on each one of these points, Mr Rampton
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Let us get it straight. The story that you had believed
 9in until 1988 was, amongst other things, that millions of
10people had been killed in factories of death by the use of
11gas chambers. I am paraphrasing the penultimate and the
12propenultimate lines of the previous ---
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, but that is not an accurate paraphrase. You
14just said, "I believed that millions of people had been
15killed in the gas chambers" and that is exactly what that
16sentence does not say. It says: "I believed that
17millions of people had been killed in factories of death.
18I believed in the gas chamber". Can you not see the
19difference between those two sentences
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am afraid I cannot. You tell me the difference
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I believed that millions of people have been killed
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In factories of death
23 A. [Mr Irving]     In factories of death. I believed in the gas chambers
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Right, now, will you please, just so that we can
25clear up this, I will not use the word, just this little
26dispute, please keep your finger where you are and turn to

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 1tab 11 which is something you said apparently on the
 2unedited transcripts of an interview on 15th and 28th
 3November for the "This Week" programme and I think Irving
 4and Leuchter at the Chelsea Town Hall was a press
 5conference you gave announcing your publication of the
 6Leuchter Report, am I right
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It was a lecture that we organized at the Chelsea Town
 8Hall, yes
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn to page 2, please, of this transcript
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I am sorry, Mr Rampton. This contains two
11separate things, this tab, does it? One, the press
12conference and the other a television interview
13 MR RAMPTON:      It does
14 A. [Mr Irving]     What I am I supposed to be looking at
15 MR RAMPTON:      Page 2 of the transcript which is at tab 11,
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      This is the press conference
18 MR RAMPTON:      This is the press conference and there is a
19passage time at 0014.25
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I only have tape 191 in this book
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      That is what you are meant to be looking at
22 MR RAMPTON:      Page 191
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Tape 191
24 MR RAMPTON:      Tape 191. Please turn to the second page of the
25transcript and look at the last paragraph on the second

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