Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 189

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     No, my Lord. We say something different about
 1out that it was. With your Lordship's permission and
 2consent, I do not want to reveal precisely the arguments
 3we will lead on this occasion. We will give the Defence
 4great time to prepare counter arguments and we have spent
 5a great deal of time and money with architectural
 6consultants and so on providing this evidence. I would
 7prefer to leave that evidence ----
 8 MR RAMPTON:      Can I intervene to say something about that? I do
 9not find myself left very happy about what Mr Irving has
10just said. The days are long gone where a Claimant who
11responds to a plea of justification is entitled to keep
12his rabbits in his back pocket and pull them out when it
13suits him so as to deprive the other side of due notice so
14that they can deal with it. If he is sitting on expert
15reports, expert evidence, as indeed he flagged up
16yesterday in his opening that he was, then we must have
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I think that is right. Can we just take
19stock at the moment, Mr Irving, and see where we are
20going? You did, I think, say you were intending to show
21three videos. Are you really wanting to show a third
23 MR IRVING:      I sense a certain impatience of your Lordship
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      I hope I am not displaying impatience. I am
25just telling you how I see the priorities. I am not

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 1 MR IRVING:      Possibly when we come to the Auschwitz phase, it
 2will be useful to show the next one which does concentrate
 3much more closely on the fabric of the sites of Auschwitz
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      May I ask you, following up what you told me
 5yesterday about the misunderstanding, whether it is or it
 6is not agreed that Auschwitz should be taken separately
 7and first
 8 MR IRVING:      We have agreed that, my Lord, and we have reached a
 9very satisfactory arrangement on the presentation of our
10principal witnesses from overseas
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      That is very good to know. Your opening is
12really concluded now, as I understand it
13 MR IRVING:      That is so, my Lord
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      So I think probably, unless you tell me that
15there is something else you want to deal with first, the
16time has come for you to start giving evidence
17 MR IRVING:      What I had proposed to do this morning, my Lord,
18the bundle which I submitted this morning and replicates
19bundle D(ii), I think, which we have already had, which is
20a very large number of photocopies of all the books which
21I have ever written, apparently, which have been very ably
22put together by the Defendants. I had put together a
23selection of pages from those books on which I was going
24to draw your attention, passages which would refute
25statements that had been made by the Defendants and also
26by counsel yesterday

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      In relation to Auschwitz
 2 MR IRVING:      No, my Lord. Do I am apprehend that your Lordship
 3wishes to deal immediately with Auschwitz or other
 4different phases
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Well, if we are going to divide up the trial,
 6and I can see the sense of it, into Auschwitz and the
 7rest, it seems to me at the moment, and Mr Rampton may
 8take a different view, I do not know, that it is sensible
 9really to plunge into the issues that arise out of
10Auschwitz rather than going to anything else, because the
11time for doing that may be when we get to the second, as
12it were, half of the trial
13 MR IRVING:      My Lord, the Auschwitz matter is an immensely
14complicated matter involving the assembly of a great deal
15of expert material, drawings. The Defendants deluged me
16on Friday evening after close of business with a further
175,000 pages of documents from van Pelt's report. To start
18straightaway today with that would put me at a
19gross disadvantage. I am sorry that there may be a
20misunderstanding. The agreement we reached was on the
21dates of presentation of our witnesses from beyond the
22seas, van Pelt in the case of the Defence and Professor
23McDonald in my case, and I was still hoping and
24anticipating we could deal with the reputation aspect
25first which is well prepared, and push Auschwitz along
26away from us for a while

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Well, you say "for a while", I mean how long
 2is the while
 3 MR IRVING:      As long as is necessary for me to deal with the
 4reputation aspects of the case
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Well, I do see the sense of your
 6establishing, I think by evidence, your reputation. I do
 7not myself think that will take very long because, bear in
 8mind, I have read a lot of the material. That is not to
 9say I do not want to hear you say it from the witness box
10in summary
11 MR IRVING:      My Lord, you have read it, but the Press have not
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, but the exercise is not really entirely
13for the members of the Press. I do not think we want to
14take a lot of time in dealing with matters which are not
15uncontentious, but which, perhaps, are not at the heart of
16what is the true issue between the parties. I am very
17anxious we get on if we can as soon as possible.
18     Can I just see what Mr Rampton would suggest as
19the appropriate course? I think my own view is that
20Mr Irving ought to go into the witness box from now on
21because I think the case has really been opened. I see
22the sense of hearing some evidence about his reputation by
23way of preliminary
24 MR RAMPTON:      I have read his witness statement. Apart from
25what he said in his opening yesterday, I really have no
26clue, no real clue, about what his case is on the detailed

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 1factual issues. I am in the same position as your
 2Lordship found yourself yesterday or said you did
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes
 4 MR RAMPTON:      I would like to know what his case is and I do
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes, well, I understand that
 7 MR RAMPTON:      I do not mind what order he takes to do that. If
 8he wants to saturate with his historiographical issues,
 9his techniques and the inaccuracies of the criticisms
10which we have made, that is no problem to me at all.
11Whether he does it from the witness box or whether he does
12it as part of his opening, again I really do not mind
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      No, I do not think it is terribly important,
14but I think it probably is properly done by evidence
15rather than by further opening statements
16 MR RAMPTON:      I agree. If he says he is not yet prepared to
17deal with the Auschwitz issues because they are, indeed,
18detailed and complicated, that is perfectly all right with
19us, but I do want to know what his case is and at the
20moment I do not
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Well, his case is to be found not only in his
22witness statement plainly but in the pleadings
23 MR RAMPTON:      Yes, I have some of his case from the reply
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      Yes. That is quite comprehensive, it
25appeared to me, on the extent to which Hitler is
26responsible for the Final Solution, relatively speaking

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