Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 31: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Tuesday, 14th March 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY THIRTY-ONE
1 < (10.30 a.m.)
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving?
3 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have provided your Lordship a copy of
4the fresh off the presses closing speech which I
5would propose to read tomorrow.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How does that ----
7 MR IRVING: It is 104 pages. It continues from where the
8version left off which I supplied your Lordship yesterday
9and I have also reversed the order what I would call
10sections 2 and 3 of it. If I can say simply it starts off
11with have an opening preamble. It continues, my Lord,
12with a look at some of the historical issues and then only
13after a while does it, after about 30 pages, then go on to
14what I call bundle E matters.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just so I understand how the two relate to
16one another, I had yesterday from you 56 pages, I think it
18 MR IRVING: Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are they the first 56 pages?
20 MR IRVING: They are the first 56 pages, but they have been
21cosmetically worked over. I have ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have they?
23 MR IRVING: --- a gentleman who I refer to as my political
24correctness editor, he came over and worked over it for
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. I have read and marked up slightly
1what you gave me yesterday.
2 MR IRVING: That is what I feared. The page numbers will make
3no sense to you now, my Lord, because of the bulk change
4I did. I switched, effectively, sections 2 and 3,
5although they are not numbered, purely to put them into a
6more optimistic up beat sequence.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. I will try to -- I see, yes, it is
8completely changed .
9 MR IRVING: When I get back, my Lord, I am sure it will help
10your Lordship if I produce a brief concordance and fax it
11through to your office which will give your Lordship an
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I can probably make my own way through it.
14 MR IRVING: I have put headings in ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
16 MR IRVING: --- which will assist your Lordship. I would also
17just like to say I had not at the time I wrote it had the
18opportunity of reading the Defendants' own statement. So
19it is written in vacuo, so to speak, not that it will
20alter matters, I am sure.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the theory was there was going to be
22an exchange so that is inevitable.
23 MR IRVING: Effectively, there has been an exchange,
24simultaneous change, because I am sure they have not read
25mine and I have not read theirs.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Thank you very much.
1 MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship has got I think now, I hope, a
2complete version of our written submission. All the
3sections are now, I hope, complete.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
5 MR RAMPTON: It is right. I will not not say any more about
6that at the moment. It is over 200 pages of rather dense
7reading. I will tomorrow, as I have your Lordship's
8permission, I think, make a very much shorter summary
9submission orally. I have not written that yet. Your
10Lordship will not find any of the contents of it, having
11regard to this, in the least surprising, I am sure.
12I shall try to make sure that your Lordship gets it and
13Mr Irving in good time before the hearing starts tomorrow.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
15 MR RAMPTON: But I will be surprised if I am on my feet for
16even more than a part of tomorrow morning.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Mr Irving, you are proposing to do the
18same thing, as I understand it?
19 MR IRVING: I was hoping for some kind of guidance from your
20Lordship. If your Lordship would mark in bulk or inform
21me in bulk at some time which passages you felt were not
22proper to deal with orally or in detail. It is a detailed
23submission which I have made to your Lordship and your
24Lordship may feel that some of the matters are too
25detailed to be dealt with in a closing statement.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I will give you a bit of guidance
1because, having read yesterday's 56 pages, and I do not
2say this critically but it did appear to me that there was
3a great deal on the topic about which you obviously feel
4passionately, namely what you see as being a conspiracy to
5bring your career as an author to a premature end. Those
6are not your words, I appreciate.
7 MR IRVING: I astutely avoided that word.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but there is an awful lot on that topic.
9Much of it did not appear to me to have anything to do
10with the Defendants. You may take a different view, but
11I am not sure that the evidence suggests that the
12Defendants are as involved with all the things of which
13you are complaining as you suggest. I, therefore, rather
14doubt whether it would be appropriate for you to use this
15court as a platform for what one might call a general
16attack on the conspirators, as you regard them.
17 MR IRVING: That is precisely the view that I expected from
18your Lordship which I obviously anticipated in the letter
19that I attached to the document.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21 MR IRVING: I will edit substantially with that in mind before
22I come to make the oral presentation.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
24 MR IRVING: It will remain a part of the submission that I make
25to the court, but it will not be put in the oral part of
26the submission, if I can put it like that.
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