إرفنج ضد ليبستدات


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 6 - 10 of 186

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    My problem is that I am merely the conduit pipe
 1for this material. I gave my own personal undertaking in
 2order to get the material released; I do not really feel I
 3can break it.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     To save time, what I am inclined to say is
 5this. It does appear to me that there is good reason for
 6supposing that it is in the public domain. If that be
 7right, I do not see it is realistic to maintain the
 8undertaking. I am therefore inclined to think it should
 9be lifted, but I would like to give an opportunity to
10whoever it may be to make representations, whether through
11you or in some other way.
12 MR IRVING:     I do not want to be held in contempt.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course you do not, but the undertaking
14will stay until tomorrow morning. If somebody tomorrow
15morning wants to say that the undertaking should remain in
16place, I will hear argument then.
17 MR IRVING:     My Lord, tomorrow is Friday.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know, but I suspect your cross-examination
19is going to continue until tomorrow.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know that there is going to be any
21difficulty at all. The only difficulty I can see, and it
22is mere conjecture, is that there may be parts of the
23electronic version which has been given to Mr Irving for
24the purposes of this case and no other purpose. There may
25be parts of that which are not in the copy which has been

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That may be.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     -- in which case I would have to maintain my
 3position so far as those other parts are concerned.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am bound to say I am not sure that
 5I understand why the Eichmann diaries are relevant
 6because, if they were not, and they by definition were
 7not, available to Mr Irving, I am not sure how they can be
 8used by way of criticism.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I may say I rather agree with that. It is not my
10intention contention today at any rate to make any
11reference to them in this court. The fact is they do
12contain, as anybody can see if they read the public
13report, some statements made in 1960 something which, if
14reliable, demolish Holocaust denial really at one fell
15swoop, but so what.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I can see that there is a way in which they
17could be capable of being used in this trial, but I will
18leave you to take whatever course you think is right.
19 MR RAMPTON:     My present inclination, I am not saying it is the
20final inclination, is that this is something for the
21historians to argue about, rather than the lawyers in this
22court, but I will reserve my position for the present at
23least, if I may. I do not know, Mr Irving may have
24further things?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think there is one other point.
26 MR IRVING:     There are two other points, my Lord. One is the

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 1video of the Halle meeting on 9th November 1991. I wish
 2to make submissions to your Lordship next week about the
 3admissibility of that video, because it was the subject of
 4a bitter dispute between myself and the instructing
 5solicitors for the Defendants. It was a matter of
 6withheld discovery, fraudulently withheld discovery. In
 7fact, I was reminded of this by the OSS this morning.
 8I put a complaint into the OSS over undertakings broken by
 9the solicitors, and so on.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who are the OSS?
11 MR IRVING:     Offices for the Supervision of Solicitors in
12Leamington Spa; a rather toothless body which watches over
13malfunctions by solicitors. So I would like permission to
14make a submission about the admissibility of the video as
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Do that when you like. In some ways it
17ought to be perhaps done sooner rather than later.
18 MR IRVING:     I had prepared a little bundle on this many, many
19weeks ago and I was just reminded of this actual matter
20this morning by this phone call from the OSS.
21     The final matter is the little bundle I put
22before your Lordship headed "Documents on Mr Irving's 1991
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
25 MR IRVING:     This is the Lowenbraukeller meeting. It is a
26matter of my truthfulness, whether I am right or whether

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 1the Defence submissions are correct, namely that I was a
 2participant in an illegal demonstration or not. These are
 3three or four documents on the police file which contain
 4the statement that was made at the time of arrest and so
 5on, which I have summarised in the two-page translation at
 6this beginning. Either your Lordship can say now that you
 7attach no importance to the issue of the submissions made
 8yesterday as to whether I was telling the truth or not.
 9It bulked quite large in the cross-examination but your
10Lordship may very well say you attach no importance to it.
11If your Lordship does attach importance to it, then
12I would ask permission to put these documents to Professor
13Funke, who is in the court this morning.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it matters a row of beans
15whether it was an illegal demonstration, or whether it was
17 MR IRVING:     I agree, my Lord.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The relevance, as it appears to me ----
19 MR IRVING:     The question is my truthfulness.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     -- is simply whether you did either
21participate in, or in some other way associate yourself
22with, the demonstration that one sees on the video.
23 MR IRVING:     I appreciate that point, my Lord, but the other
24point is my truthfulness. If I state something which is
25then disbelieved by the Defence and they maintain their
26position despite my several invitations to accept that

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 1they are wrong, and here are the documents that clearly
 2show from the police files that I am right, namely what
 3time it was, the fact that it was an hour after the
 4function in the Lowenbraukeller ended that I was
 5apprehended, the fact that we were heading northwards, so
 6to speak ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am going to do, subject to Mr Rampton,
 8is -- I do not know whether he is going to cross-examine
 9you about this?
10 MR RAMPTON:     No.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think there is any reason -- I do
12not think it has anything do with Professor Funke. He was
13not there. I do not see any reason why you should not
14very shortly, as it were, put this in evidence through
15your own mouth, as it were, or indeed by way of
16submission, I do not mind.
17 MR IRVING:     Very well.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That can be done either straightaway or it
19can be done later on. Mr Rampton, I do not know whether
20you are going to touch on this in cross-examination?
21 MR RAMPTON:     No. For the most part, right-wing extremism to my
22way of thing, has been done and dusted. I have very
23little cross-examination left on that, and it certainly
24does not concern Germany. As to these new document, I am
25completely neutral because I do not know what they say.

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