إرفنج ضد ليبستدات
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Thursday, 2nd March 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-NINE
1 (10.30 a.m.)
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, before we start
3today, I wonder if I can hand to you now a list of
5 MR IRVING: Yes.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I did mention earlier that it might
7be helpful -- it is up to both of you -- if we could
8perhaps take the issues in more or less the order in which
9I have set them out, if that is not inconvenient? I also
10want to make sure that I have got everything in that
11I need to cover, and that I have not included things that
12really are no longer live issues. Do not take time with
14 MR RAMPTON: No, I will not. There is one item in (i) of four
15which is still to come today from Evans, which will need
16to be added.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. It is just that either at a later stage
18today, or perhaps tomorrow, it might be worth spending a
19few minutes just going through that.
20 MR RAMPTON: I do not think I will finish my cross-examination
22 MR IRVING: That is very useful, my Lord. There are four or
23five minor points that I wish to raise before Mr Rampton
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
26 MR IRVING: The first point is that I have repeatedly asked the
1Defence to provide me with the speeches, the transcripts
2on disk, most recently about 10 days ago by letter. It
3would obviously assist me in responding to and rebutting
4these juicy morsels that they are tossed out of their cage
5into the courtroom, like yesterday. If I had such a thing
6on disk, and I am entitled to it of course under the
7rules, once the documents have been pleaded, I am entitled
8to have them in digital form. There is no reason for this
9delay other than a deliberate and wilful attempt to impede
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that I am clear what you are asking for,
12is it a disk containing the speeches that you have made
13that the Defendants rely on?
14 MR IRVING: No, it is a disk containing the transcripts. They
15are put into court by way of their pleadings in evidence.
16Obviously it exists in digital form. It is no great
17burden on them. It is five minutes work to do, just
18pressing one button. They could have done this 10 days
19ago, if not, indeed, when I first asked for them.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It does not sound an unreasonable request.
21 MR RAMPTON: I have no idea. I do not deal in disks, I am
22afraid. I deal in paper. I will pass on that request.
23I am surprised it has not been responded to. If it is
24anybody's fault, I apologise for it on their behalf. If
25these transcripts -- and I think Mr Irving means the
26transcripts that are in the K files ----
1 MR IRVING: Yes.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, which is racism, anti-Semitism, or
4 MR RAMPTON: -- which are mostly his own words. If they are on
5a disk, which I imagine they must be, then by all means,
6if it is easier.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know they are on disk because I am
8not -- well, anyway, if it can be done, it should be done
9soon because Mr Irving needs it.
10 MR RAMPTON: If it is possible, it should be done before the
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before the weekend, I agree, yes.
13 MR IRVING: A not unrelated matter is that the Defence
14solicitors are still sitting on a number of my microfilms
15and papers. They keep promising to return them. When
16they returned my previous boxes of papers, they returned
17them in a totally disheveled state, which has not assisted
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is something I do not really want to get
20into now. Raise that, but perhaps at a later stage.
21 MR IRVING: The third point, my Lord, is the Eichmann
22manuscripts. I gave the undertaking which your Lordship
23very properly required. The manuscript has now been
24placed in the public domain. It is on, for example, the
25website of Der Spiegel and elsewhere. I would ask that
26the undertaking which I gave should now be rescinded or
1annulled, if Mr Rampton has no objection, in order that I
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suspect he may not really know the score on
5 MR RAMPTON: I do not know the score. I am told that that
6version, which is the electronic version, that came to us
7from the Israeli Government cannot be used for any purpose
8but this trial. If it is on some website or other, then
9perhaps we can have our disk back so we can give it back
10to the Israeli Government, and people can use the public
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well ...
13 MR IRVING: Without wanting to compare the public domain
14version word for word with the version given to me, I see
15that it has been published in the Guardian yesterday, for
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have seen reports which make it appear that
18you may be right.
19 MR IRVING: Having given the undertaking ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am not in a position to judge is
21whether the whole of it is in now in the public domain.
22If the whole of it is, then it seems to me that you should
23be released from your, undertaking, but I am not going to
24release you now. I do not think this is really in a way
25Mr Rampton's problem.
26 MR RAMPTON:
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