Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Thursday, 24th February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-FIVE
1 <Day 25.
3 < DR LONGERICH, recalled.
4< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving?
6 MR IRVING: May it please the court. My Lord, you requested
7yesterday that I should state my position on the
8Einsatzgruppen and I place before your Lordship a two-page
9summary of my position. I do not know whether your
10Lordship wishes to address it now? I gave a copy to
11Mr Rampton. If Mr Rampton wishes to address it now, then
12I would be perfectly happy to discuss with him.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is sensible to have a look at it
14now because it just could affect some of the
15cross-examination later today. (Pause for reading) I am
16bound to say that I think that differs very, very
17substantially from the position that you seem to have
18adopted in your cross-examination by Mr Rampton.
19 MR IRVING: Does it? In which respect?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It seems to me that this is a rather partial
21acknowledgment of Hitler's knowledge and therefore
22responsibility for what went on in the Eastern
24 MR IRVING: Of course I did not mention the October 1943
25watershed, that is true.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry about that because you accepted
1everything, as it were, after that. Mr Rampton?
2 MR RAMPTON: I regard it as a fairly enormous step backwards.
3However, it does not trouble me in the very slightest,
4I have to say, because by a combination of the actual
5evidence of what was happening at the time and what
6Mr Irving said when first confronted with it, I am quite
7happy to leave that matter to be made by way of submission
8at the end of the case.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is right and it seemed to me
10that, when you were saying you might have to recall
11Browning and so on, I do not think that is right.
12 MR RAMPTON: No, it was off the cuff and it was not meant
13interrorem, but it was a thought that occurred to me.
14I think actually, having regard to this, that this is so
15inconsistent, in my submission, with what was first said
16in cross-examination, that I am happy to leave it like
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is a matter for comment later on.
19Mr Irving, that must be right. To the extent that there
20is a difference between the position you took in
21cross-examination and this document, then Mr Rampton
22obviously must be entitled to make whatever comment he
24 MR IRVING: Or indeed to cross-examine me further on that
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He may want to do that, I do not know.
1Probably not I guess. Anyway, I have that now. Again
2I think it is sensible to try to work out where it should
3go. I think probably it goes in -- this is really for the
4transcript so that everybody knows where it is --
5 MR IRVING: L, was it not?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was thinking more, because in a way it is
7statement of your case, I wonder whether it belongs in C
8or, indeed, in the pleadings. I think that is right. I
9will tuck it behind your defence in bundle A.
10 MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much for doing that anyway.
12When I say "defence", I mean, of course, reply, tab 4.
13Yes. Is there anything else before you resume?
14 MR IRVING: No, I can begin cross-examination.
15 < Dr Peter Longerich, Recalled
16< Cross-examination by Mr Irving, continued.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Dr Longerich, good morning.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Good morning.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] We touched yesterday briefly on the existence in the
20Institut fur Zeitgeschichte of manuscripts written by Karl
21Wolff. You said that it was of a confidential nature and
22that it was not open for general research. I stated that
23in my discovery there had been extracts or a transcript of
24part of that. Can I ask you to look at the little bundle
25I just gave you? My Lord, this is on page 14 of the
26little bundle which is in sections.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this a manuscript? Manuscript, Karl
2Wolff, I see.
3 MR IRVING: Yes. If you go to page 16, which is the last page
4in that little clip, you will see a handwritten version of
5it. That is the original German. Page 14 is the original
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] May I ask, is this your transcript?
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, that is my handwriting.
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] So I have to rely on Mr Irving's summary?
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, extracts.
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have to say I am not happy with that because, as we
12experienced yesterday, Mr Irving tends to shorten
13documents and I do not agree with him on the principles in
14the way he shortens documents. I am not very happy to
15comment on his transcripts or excerpts from documents.
16I would like to see the original.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] If you look at line 6, you will see that I have put three
18dots, and line 7 I have three dots.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but I have not seen the original, so I cannot ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving] You stated, of course, that you were not permitted to see
21the original because it was a confidential document.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. Still I would like to see the original.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what the problem is. Where is
24the original, Mr Irving?
25 MR IRVING: It is in the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte in Munich.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:
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