إرفنج ضد ليبستدات


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 206 - 210 of 212

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    In that case, I would respectfully submit that we
 1Mr Rampton wishes to make a point.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No, I do not want to make any points. I am
 3concerned about the length of time everything is taking.
 4It means I think the schedule has to be rewritten. It
 5means probably we will not get to Professor Funke until
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you say that? Another half day and
 8I hope it will be less.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Another half day and then I have a day or a day
10and a half cross-examination.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is half a day more than your previous
13 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not. I told somebody, I hope it was
14your Lordship, that I thought it might go over one day,
15beyond a day.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you Dr Funke lined up for Tuesday midday
17just in case?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I will. He will be in court on Tuesday.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
20 MR RAMPTON:     There is only one other thing. I have from Munich
21now the relevant transcript which, contrary to the thing
22that Mr Irving produced, is not dated 11th May but 12th
23December 1942. It makes it difficult to find things if we
24do not get the right reference. I will pass them out, if
25I may. They are the Karl Wolff and it is the whole thing
26as well, instead of being a redacted version.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whilst we have that in mind shall we just
 2have a look and see what it says at the relevant bit?
 3 MR IRVING:     Yes. I think possibly the witness might like to
 4look at it and be asked if he ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Absolutely, that is what I meant.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     The relevant page has 4 at the top of it,
 7I think. I would prefer actually, my Lord, if it is
 8possible, it is a good idea of Miss Rogers, that the
 9witness really ought to be given time to read the whole
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He can come back to it, but would you mind
12for my benefit whilst it is in my head just to find ----
13 MR RAMPTON:     It is the bottom half of page 4.
14 MR IRVING:     Page 31 it starts.
15 MR IRVING:     I think it is a useful exercise, my Lord, if
16I translate the entire document.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would be grateful if you would translate
18now for me: "Nach dem rautign Uberglick". I can guess
19what it means, but I am probably wrong.
20 MR IRVING:     On which page is that?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the bottom of page 4, about eight lines
22up from the bottom, six lines up from the bottom.
23 MR IRVING:     "According to what we know now that it was perhaps
2470 people from Himmler to Hirst.
25 MR JUSTICE "GRAY:     According to what we know now".
26 MR IRVING:     Yes, that is the way I would translate that, or

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 1seen from the present standpoint.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You would rather have a bit of time to
 3consider this, would you, Dr Longerich?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to put this immediately after 14A
 6in your clip.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     The only thing I would point though is that at the
 8bottom of page 4 of what I might call the authentic
 9version there is a sentence relating to Martin Bormann
10which naturally makes a link with Hitler which is missed
11out of Mr Irving's version.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Which page is that?
13 MR RAMPTON:     Page 31 at the bottom or 4 at the top, there is a
14sentence "G.W. Bormann" and so on and that is not in the
15version that was presented this morning. It is an earlier
16sentence, two sentences earlier, has been missed out as
17well. I do not know whether it is significant.
18 MR IRVING:     I will translate the entire document and I will fax
19it through to you at the weekend.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     As far as I can see from the document, he is basically
21saying two things. He is saying, yes, we carried out the
22Holocaust, the Final Solution, we killed, we tried and we
23were able to, we killed millions of Jews. He talks about
24Millionen Morden on page 5, and on the other hand he is
25saying, well, actually Himmler did it on his own
26initiative because he thought that he could fulfil

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 1Hitler's ideas. So I do not know, I mean I do not know
 2how you put your case, you know, how you want to deal with
 3the document. Are you saying this is a kind of
 4confirmation that millions of Jews were actually killed in
 5extermination camps? I mean what is the way you want to
 6deal with the document? Are you only relying on parts of
 7it and you would then refuse other parts of the documents?
 8 MR IRVING:     At first blush does the document look self-serving
 9to you?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I think so, because he wants to, I mean Wolf's aim
11was of course to distance himself from the events. So he
12is saying, well, actually this operation was only carried
13out by 70 people. So he did not of course admit that it
14was a much, much larger operation. So there is a kind of
15self-serving in it. Also this is his personal, the
16impression he had. He is in talking in 1952 about events
17ten years earlier. Wolff was of course an admirer of
18Hitler and he tried to distance Hitler from the Holocaust,
19from this history. I do not see how much
20I should -- I mean I can accept this is Wolf's view in
211952, but I do not see how this could destroy the other
22evidence. Also which part of the story are you accepting,
23the part that Himmler ordered Millionen Morden, the
24killing of millions of people, or the other part that
25Hitler was not involved in?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, you have accepted that the order of a million Jews

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 1were killed on the Eastern Front, I think, there is no
 2question about that.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Despite your acceptance that it is
 4self-serving, I think it may be quite important to have
 5another look at this on Monday morning. I think it might
 6be as well perhaps to have in my mind on Monday morning
 7the reference when it was first introduced in evidence
 8today, because my recollection is that you put it forward
 9as being a document which could be relied on.
10 MR IRVING:     Indeed, my Lord, yes. I certainly will not depart
11from that. I am just about to ask one final question of
12the witness. Dr Longerich, this is an interview between
13Karl Wolff which he has requested to be kept confidential,
14is it not?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I do not think so.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you yourself say that the Karl Wolff collection at the
17time you wished to see it was kept confidential?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, you confuse two points. You referred yesterday to
19memoirs of Karl Wolff, and they are not generally
20accessible, but the collection S Zeugenschrift, I
21know this collection quite well, is open, everybody can go
22in the Institute and make a photocopy and use it. These
23are the internal interviews the Institute made in the
241950s. By the way, the interviews are in a way not
25verbatim transcripts. These are a kind summary that the
26person who made the interviews actually made.

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