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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

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 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Wednesday, 23rd February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
Counsell &Company)
24
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-FOUR
26

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 1 <Day 24.
 2(10.30 a.m.)
 3 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, before I call Dr Longerich, there are
 4three things I think I would like to mention.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I want to mention two things to you too.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Then judge before counsel.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right. One I think I have actually
 8discovered the answer to, but can you just confirm that
 9the statements which you rely on for saying that Mr Irving
10is a Holocaust denier, are they now collective in K3 and,
11if so, are they going to be refined down, as it were, any
12more or do I take it that K3 is the selection upon which
13you rely.
14 MR RAMPTON:     My belief is there was an abstract rather like the
15anti-Semitic abstract. It is on Word disk.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I actually heard that. If, in due course,
17Mr Irving and I can be supplied with a copy of it, that
18will help a great deal. The other thing is, looking ahead
19a little more, and this is for you, Mr Irving, as well is
20really looking ahead to final speeches, it seems obvious
21that you must both take matters in whatever order you
22think is appropriate, but it seemed to me in this
23particular case it would be quite helpful to have a
24discussion at some stage about a possibly agreed order of
25topics to be covered, because it would help me if I knew
26what you were moving to. If you were to take things in

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 1the same order, you do not have to obviously, but do you
 2follow what I am getting at?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I do.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is quite a difficult case in the sense
 5of you cannot take it chronologically and it is quite
 6difficult to interrelate some of the issues.
 7 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship is aware that I propose not
 8addressing certain issues in my closing speech.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a matter for you.
10 MR IRVING:     But I certainly agree that there should be an
11agreed order.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think so. That makes it sound a bit more
13formal than I was really intending, but if we can set
14aside maybe half an hour some time early next week.
15 MR RAMPTON:     May I say straightaway my present format is to do
16what I call historical falsification first, then because
17it goes with Holocaust denial, Auschwitz, and then what
18I call racism and then finally political associations.
19I will try to order the historical distortions as I did in
20cross-examination, and my witnesses have done more or less
21in the witness box, to do that chronologically.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I can just indicate the problem I have had
23is that the issue of Hitler's knowledge of what was going
24on is quite difficult to accommodate within the structure
25you have just outlined. That is, I think, the area that
26is quite difficult to slot in.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Except to this extent, it does not find a place,
 2or not a significant place, in my format because I do not
 3believe that it has any relevance except in so far as it
 4is on the back of that topic that most of the historical
 5distortions ride.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Quite, but if you limit -- I am sorry to go
 7on about this point; it is quite important to thrash it
 8out -- what one might call the historiographical
 9criticisms of Mr Irving to the points that are made,
10effectively, by Professor Evans, you slightly miss the
11whole gamut of the continuum, to use a word we have been
12using, of the evidence in relation to that issue. So I
13will just mention that as being a possible difficulty.
14 MR RAMPTON:     It will have a place in the file which -- your
15Lordship I hope now has, which we have finished, I am
16afraid -- that was the other thing I was going to say and
17apologise -- a bit late yesterday. It contains what we
18think are the core history documents and that, obviously,
19bears on the Hitler knowledge question.
20     There will be in what I have to say a certain
21amount relating to Hitler's knowledge, Hitler's authority,
22Hitler's orders, if you like, but only in so far as the
23evidence leads to the conclusion reached by Sir John
24Keegan, for example, that the idea that he did not know
25defies reason.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will spend a bit more time on perhaps

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 1discussing that.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     One other thing: as to that Hitler knowledge
 3question, what Miss Rogers has done is to prepare a
 4reference, chronological reference document, for what are
 5the most important -- it is not exhaustive -- Hitler
 6statements, in our submission. Can I pass that up?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where do you want me to put it? Have you had
 8this, Mr Irving?
 9 MR IRVING:     No, I have not.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there a copy for Mr Irving?
11 MR RAMPTON:     N1, I think it is. It is the new file anyway and
12it is ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is called N1, thank you.
14 MR RAMPTON:     There is one other thing I should say. Your
15Lordship asked for a note on the admissibility of expert
16evidence in written form. I have done a note on that. It
17will be ready by 2 o'clock. It is being typed.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Obviously, Mr Irving should have a chance to
19look at it before we have any submissions there are going
20to be about it.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I will attach to it, there are some pieces of
22paper showing what the statutes and the rules say.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much. Mr Irving?
24 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the only thing I would wish to add to that
25is a request that there should be one clear day before the
26submission of closing speeches.

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