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Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 207

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    About two pages from the end, is that a letter from me to
 1somebody called Mrs Weckert dated June 3rd 1979?
 2 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry. I wonder if I am looking at the
 4wrong thing?
 5 MR IRVING:     It is two pages from the end of that little bundle,
 6my Lord.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it has found its way here. It
 8does not appear in my clip, at any rate not two pages from
 9the end?
10 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     This is the one with 693 in the top right hand corner.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does the 693 indicate that that letter was in my
12discovery?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am sure it does.
14 MR IRVING:     Am I replying in that letter to a sehr ausfuhrliche
15Darstellung which this lady has sent to me?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am thanking her for a very ----
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Extensive.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Extensive description.
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that this was a description of the events
22of the Kristallnacht as she has researched it up to that
23point?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I accept that that is her tendentious account of the
25Reichskristallnacht.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. Will you look in the second paragraph and see

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 1that I make criticisms already of her account and suggest
 2that I am not going to go along with everything that she
 3writes? You cannot just dismiss the report of the SA
 4Group -- do I write that?
 5 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     You write that, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     This will certainly interest you most of all? I also
 7refer to the diary of von Hassell, the diary of Grosfort
 8and other contemporary sources?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, Mr Irving. As I have already said, I do not say that
10you take over all her ideas. You do not, for example,
11depict, as she does, the pogrom of the Reichskristallnacht
12as devised and put forward by Zionists in order to cast
13opprobrium on the Nazi regime and cause it to fall. Even
14you have some scruples, Mr Irving.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is possible that an amateur historian like Ingrid Weckert
16will succeed by her obsessive diligence in turning up
17items, or documents, or conversations with people that she
18conducted, that would be use to the general body of
19historical opinion?
20 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would not regard her as an amateur historian, Mr Irving.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     An amateur writer, an amateur chronicler?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Answer the thrust of the question, Professor
23Evans.
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     There is always a possibility, yes, of course, that anyone
25can do that.
26 MR IRVING:     Is this the kind of correspondence you would expect

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 1to see between one writer and another where one writer is
 2saying, "I found this kind of thing", and the other writer
 3writes back and says, "well, I think you got this right
 4but you got that wrong, here are some documents that
 5I have got" -- does this go on?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I have not said that you take over all her ideas, or that
 7you agree with absolutely everything she says. The fact
 8remains, Mr Irving, that in your accounts of the
 9Reichskristallnacht some years later than 1979, and after
10she had published her work in the course of the 1980s, you
11do adopt a number of her ideas.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen the lengthy Darstellung that she sent me?
13It was in the discovery.
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We used her book and her ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have used her book?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Wait a minute, and the articles with the pencil lines in
17the margin.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have used her articles, but have you seen the lengthy
19typescript letter she sent me with all the details of the
20research that she had done?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     We have not used that in the report, Mr Irving. We have
22used her -- this is not a report about Frau Weckert and
23her works.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     But quite a lot of it is about her, is it not?
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The report is about you, and your use of her work. There
26are one, two, three, four, five, about half a dozen pages

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 1here about your reliance on aspects of her work rather
 2than on your own research.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The inference you are giving in your report -- I am going
 4it move on very shortly from this -- is that I have
 5relied on her book. You go in great detail into her
 6book. You say that her book has been black listed by the
 7Germans. It has been put on the censorship list, has it?
 8 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     It is illegal to sell or lend it to any person under the
 9age of 18 because it is regarded by the authorities as an
10anti-semitic work which is liable to corrupt young minds,
11and also shows no evidence of even minimal attempts at
12truthfulness and objectivity. Let me say once again,
13Mr Irving, that what I demonstrate in my report is that
14you have taken some, although not all, of Ingrid Weckert's
15ideas from her writings, from her articles, which then
16were reprinted and put together as the book.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have not made no reference at all to the fact that
18I had from her a lengthy special Darstellung which she
19wrote at my request and which has no reference to her
20book, which is the thing that has been banned and on which
21I pass critical comment?
22 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Are you claiming that this is entirely different from the
23book and the articles, it says completely things and that
24that is what you use in your book, Mr Irving? I do not
25think so.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the corner of the world where you come from, Professor

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 1Evans, do you agree with the censoring of books,
 2blacklisting of books?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think we need to get into that.
 4 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     That is an entirely different matter.
 5 MR IRVING:     Why did you mention it then in this report?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Because the German authorities have investigated her work
 7and decided after the investigation that it is
 8anti-semitic, corrupting and shows no evidence of even
 9minimal attempts at truthfulness or objectivity.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     As you said earlier, have we anything----
11 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     What they do as a result of that is a matter for them.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have we anything to learn from Germany in this last
13century about freedom of speech?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that question helps, Mr
15Irving.
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I take that as a rhetorical question, Mr Irving.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes. Leave me to deal with the question.
18 MR IRVING:     In paragraph 10 on page 308 you object to the fact
19that I have corrected a wrong date to a correct date.
20What on earth is wrong with that?
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Sorry, where is this?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     In paragraph 10 on page 308. You say he unilaterally
23alters the date of arrival of Goebbels back in Berlin.
24I have corrected a wrong date to a correct date. What is
25wrong with that?
26 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     

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