إرفنج ضد ليبستدات

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

Pages 211 - 215 of 215

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    I do not think it was taken very seriously by the court,
 1use of Hofmann's evidence you simply have to say that he
 2is heavily involved in the Putsch, he is a Nazi party
 3supporter and is regarded as such by the court.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your final criticism is that I do not give proper source
 5notes for this, is that correct?
 6 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. Where is this?
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, that I failed to provide a proper footnote
 8reference. It is the bottom of page 230.
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that a serious criticism or is just your irritation
11that you had to go and look in the index of your printed
12edition of this trial?
13 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Well, it is more than that. I think that you have made it
14deliberately difficult for people to go and check it out.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have made it deliberately difficult?
16 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     In what way?
18 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Do you want to have a look at the footnote reference which
19you provide or do not provide?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not correct that I give the reference as being
21microfilm version of the trial of the Bavarian people
22against Adolf Hitler and others?
23 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, that is 8,000 pages, as you said, Mr Irving. I do
24think that simply referring to an 8,000 page collection
25does make it difficult. You could, for example, easily
26have put the day on which it occurred and given a frame

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 1number, if there are frame numbers, or a real number, if
 2there are real numbers. There are ways in which you can
 3be more precise.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you take it from me that the American publisher
 5William Morrow asked me to cut 2,000 lines out the proofs
 6of this book. In other words, at proof stage, they said,
 7Mr Irving, please cut 2,000 lines out of this book. Can
 8you accept that?
 9 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I would have to see the documentary evidence of that.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. If that was the case, what are the first
11places that you would be tempted to make the cuts?
12 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     I agree of course in the footnotes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the footnotes?
14 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     But in that case I think you still have to abbreviate
15footnotes. You have to provide footnote references which
16will enable other people to go and check up what you have
17written. You could have, you know, done this in such a
18way as to achieve that object.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in summary, on the case of this policeman Hoffmann
20your allegations against me rest on the statement that
21I ought to have known, or ought to have noticed, there was
22a Nazi party member and I ought to----
23 MR RAMPTON:     No, my Lord, he did not say "ought to", he said
24"must have", which is quite different.
25 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes. He did know.
26 MR IRVING:     Very well. In that case I have to ask again, on

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 1what evidence----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have been all over that, Mr Irving,
 3really.
 4 MR IRVING:     Do you have any evidence that I did know?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, Mr Rampton has just reminded you
 6that you accepted that you had read the whole of the trial
 7evidence, including Hoffmann.
 8 MR IRVING:     Has your Lordship any idea of how many words there
 9are on 8,000 pages of transcript?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have just been through that point.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes, but the fact that one reads 8,000 pages of
12transcript with no doubt many millions of words does not
13mean to say that one knows everything that is stated about
14every person in that transcript.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, what I am going to suggest is that
16you read the transcript of the last 20 minutes again
17perhaps, if you have time between now and tomorrow, and
18I think you will understand why I think you will not do
19any good to your case by going all over it again.
20 MR IRVING:     Well ----
21 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     The answer to your question, Mr Irving, is no, my case
22against you here does not rest solely on that.
23 MR IRVING:     On Hoffmann?
24 A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     On the fact that you suppressed your knowledge of the bias
25in his testimony. I also, as you know, say that you
26manipulate what he said.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is your evidence for the fact that he was biased in
 2his testimony?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that question has been asked and
 4answered sufficiently.
 5 MR IRVING:     Except that he stated it as a fact, and of course
 6it is an opinion.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In a sense it is perhaps neither. It is an
 8inference from all the circumstances.
 9 MR IRVING:     A possible bias, this is true. We now pass to
10Reichskristallnacht, page 233.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I accept that it is slightly my
12fault that we spent the last 20 plus minutes on the 1924
13trial, but frankly I think it was vital that you did
14address that. But, having got to ten past 4, would it be
15sensible to start on Kristallnacht tomorrow morning?
16 MR IRVING:     It would be sensible, my Lord. Perhaps I can wave
17a little flag and say I shall reserve the right to come
18back to Hoffmann on a later occasion with more material,
19as your Lordship obviously attaches more significance to
20it than I do.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Only because is it one of the chain of
22documents.
23 MR IRVING:     I intend dealing with the chain of documents in
24sequence on a different occasion, I think. It makes more
25sense.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I say in advance that I am going to have

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 1to rise just a little bit early tomorrow, say about
 24 o'clock rather than 4.15. 10.30 tomorrow.
 3 < (The witness withdrew).
 4(The court adjourned until the following day)
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