إرفنج ضد ليبستدات
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 18: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Thursday, 10th February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company,Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY EIGHTEEN
1 <Day 18 Thursday, 10th February 2000.
2 (10.30 a.m.)
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: May it please the court. Two or three minor
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
6 MR IRVING: Your Lordship requested yesterday or the day before
7yesterday, you expressed an interest in that remark by
8Hans Frank at the Nuremberg trial where he said that he
9had discussed it with the Fuhrer on February 2nd 1944.
10Your Lordship said you would like to see the passage
11concerned. That is the top document in the heap which
12I have left your Lordship there.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
14 MR IRVING: In order that your Lordship can see the passage
15concerned, I have put it into bold face, and it is about
1610 pages in, I think. It is easier to find -- it is three
17pages from the end, my Lord.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you.
19 MR RAMPTON: Maybe your Lordship has something I have not.
20 MR IRVING: It is there.
21 MR RAMPTON: Thank you very much.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is in bold.
23 MR IRVING: I have put in bold, that particular passage. The
24entire document is of interest and it may well be that
25Mr Rampton will wish to ask questions about it. It is
26Hans Frank, who is the Governor General, which is not
1where Auschwitz was situated, of course, the Governor
2General, but he is relating his own experiences and how he
3learned, first of all, of the rumours from radio
4broadcasts, which may seem extraordinary and how he then
5went to discuss them with Hitler.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you.
7 MR IRVING: The second point is ----
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry to interrupt you, but where shall we
10 MR IRVING: Miss Rogers will, undoubtedly, have a suggestion to
11make of a proper nature.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. She is in charge.
13 MR RAMPTON: Probably in the J file somewhere or other. At the
14back of tab 7 of L1(iv) for the present.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Hang on, this is, in effect, an Auschwitz
17 MR IRVING: It is.
18 MR RAMPTON: Is it?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we do not want to put it in a ----
20 MR RAMPTON: I do not think it is an Auschwitz document.
21 MR IRVING: It is. It goes to Auschwitz and Hitler's knowledge
22of Auschwitz. It is actually the question of the final
23link. Your Lordship may read this document either way, of
24course. You may hold it against me, in fact, that Frank
25is discussing this with Hitler.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not going to try to absorb it now
1because it maybe you will want to pick this up with
3 MR RAMPTON: It is Hitler knowledge, really, because it
4reflects back on the suggestion that Frank was told by
6 MR IRVING: I agree.
7 MR RAMPTON: --- or one of Hitler's people on 12th December
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you stick with L as being the appropriate
11 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I would stick with L for the moment. L1, tab
128, I am now told.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of 8, you are saying?
14 MR RAMPTON: If there is a tab 8.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know we are taking time on this, but it is
16really important that one has the documents in some sort
17of order. Yes, Mr Irving. Next one?
18 MR IRVING: The next point is that yesterday evening at about
198.30 p.m. there was delivered to me by courier from the
20Defendants a very large bundle of papers once again for
21which Mr Rampton would say, I attach no blame
22whatsoever to the other parties; obviously, this is an
23action where that kind of thing happens.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not so sure about that, but I will
25guard my tongue at the moment.
26 MR IRVING: Basically, it was answers to questions which I
1had asked of today's witness, Professor Evans, on January
22nd and January 3rd this year, around about that date, and
3here we are five weeks later; they have now delivered a
4response of probably 150, something like that, pages.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry. You say you asked questions of
6Professor Evans on a previous occasion?
7 MR RAMPTON: Written questions.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think I have seen that.
9 MR RAMPTON: It is perfectly all right within the rules.
10 MR IRVING: Within the rules and with the aim of speeding
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think I have seen the product of
14 MR IRVING: Well, the product was delivered to me last night.
15It covers really the first 200 pages of his expert report
16which means I cannot today address myself specifically to
17those pages of his report. It would be a nonsense.
18 MR RAMPTON: That is perfectly reasonable. In fact, the
19answers run only to six pages, I think.
20 MR IRVING: Yes.
21 MR RAMPTON: The rest is what you might call supporting
23 MR IRVING: Very well.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But why has this come ----
25 MR RAMPTON: Because Professor ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:
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