Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition

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    You wish me in a thousand page book not only to put the
 1well.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, if I may use one of your phrases, if you are
 3trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, one way of
 4doing it is to give your version of the German without
 5giving the original, is it not, and that is not here what
 6Professor Browning has done.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     But at the same time, of course, what one could also do,
 8if one was the historian you are talking about, he could
 9denote his entire files to the relevant archives and could
10draw the attention of other historians to those
11contentious documents in the way that I do.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we move on? It seems to me to be a
13fairly narrow point.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     If it is just one camp, then there is obviously an
15inference to be drawn but, if they are being sent to many
16camps, then that rather destroys any inference that can be
17drawn from it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You develop that when we hear from Professor
19Browning.
20 MR RAMPTON:     "In short, Jews deported from Europe were not
21simply going to be expelled into eastern Russia, but
22rather they were to be interned in a German'reception
23camp' [or'reception camps'] not yet built."
24 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the point that has now been destroyed, has it not,
25by the improper translation? "Into a reception camp which
26has not yet been built" when, in fact, they have been sent

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 1to many camps, or more than one, hence the plural.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will re-read it, Mr Irving, to take account of your
 3wounding criticism of Professor Browning: "In short, Jews
 4deported from Europe were not simply going to be expelled
 5into eastern Russia, but rather they were to be interned
 6in German'reception camps' not yet built. Furthermore, as
 7these reception camps were for women, children, and
 8elderly, clearly they were not labor camps."
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     That is not what he has written. He has written: "... as
10this reception camp was for women, children, and elderly,
11it was clearly not a labor camp". Can I remind you, Mr
12Rampton, of the fun you had with my mistranslation of
13transporte of transport as "transports"? Is this not
14precisely the same kind of manipulation by your expert?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You must put that to him.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I am mentioning to you, Mr Rampton, so that the court can
17hear it.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My case against you, Mr Irving -- you brought this action;
19you want to take money off my clients and you want to shut
20them up for the future with an injunction -- is that you
21deliberately falsified the original documents amongst
22other things. If you are making the same accusation
23against good Professor Browning, then you must make it to
24him, not to me.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Professor Browning has made an error of precisely the same
26magnitude as transport and transporte, Mr Rampton.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am well aware of that point. Let us move
 2on.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Let us move on. There are two reasons I read that
 4earlier paragraph, first because the next paragraph makes
 5more sense if one has seen it; and secondly, because we
 6will be coming back to Belgrade later on.
 7     "A second relevant document is a short
 8hand-written letter of October 23, 1941, that Franz
 9Rademacher found waiting for him from the foreign editor
10of Der Stormer, Paul Wurm, when he returned to Berlin.
11Wurm wrote:...", and again the German is at the bottom of
12this page and the next if you want to look at it. Would
13you like to look at it first? Footnote 82.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My Lord, it is not unfortunately in the bundle.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we really need it?
17 MR RAMPTON:     No. I am fearful of poor Professor Browning being
18accused of misquoting the German.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I have satisfied the court on that point.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Come on.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Have you read the German?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, my Lord, to mention it again, but there is a
23certain element of malicious glee.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you read the German, Mr Irving?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I have indeed and it is an accurate translation.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is an accurate translation. It reads: "Dear Party

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 1comrade Rademacher! On my return trip from Berlin I met
 2an old party comrade, who works in the east on the
 3settlement of the Jewish question. In the near future
 4many of the Jewish vermin..." The German is Ungezeifer, is
 5it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Ungeziefer. It has been mistyped.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Deliberate manipulation."... will be exterminated through
 8special measures." That is unequivocal, is it not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, except the word "exterminated" is the usual
10contention that we have. He translates "vernichtet" and
11"vernichtung", we discovered from the dictionary, is
12destroyed. He has taken the third or fourth meaning of
13the word in the way that your experts have.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. This is, I am bound to say, a baffling
15proposition, Mr Irving. He has used the word
16"Ungeziefer", which means, you tell me accurately, means
17...?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Vermin.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Vermin.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does one do with vermin? Transport them to camps in
22the East, put them to work?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I am giving a literal translation of the word. You
24remember we had the discussion about the difference
25between destroyed or annihilated and exterminated.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let's not get bogged down. What is being put

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 1to you is that, where you have vernichtung in combination
 2with a reference to vermin, there can be no two ways about
 3it. What is being talked about is extermination. Do you
 4not agree with that?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     There is more than one way to skin a cat and I am not
 6going to go beyond what the actual document says, my
 7Lord. For example -- it could equally well be destroyed
 8as vermin by being locked up for life. I am just talking
 9about theoretical possibilities, but I agree that there is
10a sinister connotation on this document.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do agree?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Professor Browning goes on ----.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     He has also talked about the fact that the Jewish men have
15been shot and disposed of, which is many of what he calls
16the vermin. This does not really take it much further.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are coming to the female and the infant vermin in a
18moment. What did Wurm mean by special measures for the
19destruction of Jews in the east, extermination,
20vernichtung, whatever?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not the writer of this letter, Mr Rampton, so I do
22not know what he is talking about.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Well, we will leave that, shall we? I do not believe
24there can be any doubt about what extermination of vermin
25actually means.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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