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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 207

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    Well, up to a point. I think the fact is
 1that if Professor Lipstadt has jumped on board a sort of
 2bandwagon of critics of yours.
 3 MR IRVING:     Use that phrase.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     She has to justify what she has adopted from
 6 MR IRVING:     It is very difficult to justify if one knows in
 7advance this particular witness is not proposing to submit
 8herself to cross-examination.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do not have to do it by going into the
10box yourself, you can do it by calling experts, as appears
11to be the Defendants' intention. But do not worry about
12the point about having gone by the board. I know what
13your case is. I am very well aware of that.
14 MR IRVING:     A case that is founded on documents is far better
15than a case based upon mere verbal allegations.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see that. If I want to try and elicit more
17from your own expert witnesses when they come to give
18evidence about your own reputation and, indeed perhaps,
19about the campaign, well, to a limited extent, of course,
20you can do that.
21 MR IRVING:     What about the historical documents, my Lord? For
22example, in December 1942, on Friday, we were looking at
23the December 1942 document -- I am sure your Lordship
24remembers -- when Himmler sent a report to Hitler saying
25the 300,000 Jews shot as partisans, roughly speaking, and
26this is used as evidence against me, or against my

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 1position. There is a similar document from the same month
 2showing a conference between Himmler and Hitler where
 3Hitler is authorising Himmler to sell Jews to foreigners
 4for foreign currency which would indicate in the other
 5direction that he is not hell bent on destroying every Jew
 6that comes into his possession. How will I be able to
 7submit documents like that to your Lordship's attention?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is a document not in your discovery at
 9the moment.
10 MR IRVING:     It is in the discovery. All these kinds of
11documents are in the discovery, but unless I -- I think
12there are over 2,000 documents in my discovery, many of
13them of many pages, and I am sure your Lordship will not
14have had time to consider them all.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No I do not pretend to.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Might I again, I am only trying to help, I have no
17doubt at all that Mr Irving is correct -- I have not
18looked at it myself but when he says he has disclosed
19these documents I have no doubt he has. What has happened
20is, of course, that the files, "bundles" the lawyers call
21them, which your Lordship has, are ours. Little or no
22material from Mr Irving's side, except in so far as we
23already had and want to use it. What has not happened in
24this case, I know not why, is there has not, I do not
25I think, been any request from Mr Irving to have files
26made up.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     For submission to the court in the normal way.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving is obviously free where they are
 4relevant to say, well, there are other documents that put
 5a different complexion on it.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I do not dispute this at all, what I am
 7uncomfortable about as an advocate is, and I would I think
 8if I were the judge in this case be uncomfortable about,
 9is having documents coming at one with very little notice
10and at sort of random intervals. I would rather some
11hearing time or at some time when Mr Irving is not doing
12something else he could sit down and make a list of all
13the documents that he wants to refer to rebut our case
14against his integrity as an historian. Then we will have
15them made up into files, which would then become the --
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think he would say I cannot really say in
17advance because it depends very much on what tack you
18adopt in cross-examination. He will hear what you say.
19 MR RAMPTON:     My cross-examination merely follows the scheme of
20my expert reports. There is nothing -- there is
21nothing -- there is no ambushing. It is all there.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I accept that.
23 MR RAMPTON:     What is more there were all those written requests
24for information that we served in October or early
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you hear what Mr Rampton says, the

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 1problem is time. I mean, you are not going to have a day
 2to sit down --
 3 MR IRVING:     I agree, I am looking at practicalities.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And do a list. I think the answer must to
 5the extent you want to refer to documents you must be free
 6to do so, but I am not inviting you to produce a sort of
 7steady trickle of odd documents as we go along.
 8 MR IRVING:     My tactics will be, my Lord, that I will take
 9specific issues, as I intend to this morning for a very
10few minutes suggest on the basis of documents already in
11the bundle or otherwise in the discovery that my position
12is correct, and that the position which they have laboured
13to establish is incorrect. I was proposing to do that for
14two or three minutes this morning on two specific issues
15that we will come to later.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, to the extent you want to introduce
17documents then I am not going to stop you. What I am very
18anxious to do is make sure we know where they are landing
19up. I am intending to put them all in the bundle called
20"J". It may be sensible if everybody else does the same,
21including those documents you produced I think on
22Thursday. But if you can give Mr Rampton advance notice
23of any documents that are not already in the bundles then
24that would be helpful.
25 MR IRVING:     I endeavour to do so, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Now these dates for Professor Watt and so

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 1on. I have no problem with any of them.
 2 MR IRVING:     I have established each date with a view to
 3providing sufficient time for adequate cross-examination
 4and, of course, they are flexible to that extent.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     The first one is this Thursday.
 6 MR IRVING:     Professor Watt, yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton is still going to be
 8cross-examining, that is what he is going to say.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I will still, but I do not mind my
10cross-examination being interrupted in the slightest.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, it might in some ways be an advantage.
12I do not, like you, think there is going to be much
13cross-examination of these witnesses.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I do not even know what Professor Watt is going to
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is part of the point, is it not? Shall
17we proceed on the basis these dates are all acceptable.
18 MR IRVING:     Professor Watt and Sir John Keegan are appearing on
19subpoena. This brings up one minor point; Sir John
20Keegan's subpoena was dated for a different date than the
21date we proposed now to call on because --
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is agreed, is it not?
23 MR IRVING:     It is agreed. If your Lordship would agree to
24amend the summons.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure I need formally to amend it.
26It is agreed and accepted --

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